Talk:asar

Tagalog Etymology

@Mlgc1998 So I read your explanation of your recent edit here, from what I understand, you're basic argument is that the Tagalog meaning is closer to the Spanish word "azar" (one of the definitions of which is "misfortune"). You can make a similar argument though with "asar" (meaning "to roast"). One can think of "to roast" or "roasted", to "roast" someone as a figurative way of saying to "annoy" someone (mang-asar). While for "azar", the transition from "misfortune" to an action done to someone (which is mainly what the essence of the Tagalog word "asar" is) is hard to relate. So, to be honest, from this standpoint, it's more likely that the word is from Spanish "asar" than "azar". But I still put both as the evidence for both isn't conclusive. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:45, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: To add, I think you also make a point that if Spanish "asar" became "asal", then Tagalog "asar" must be from another word. But the thing is, we can have two Tagalog words originating from the same Spanish word, forming doublets. Like how Tagalog "abla" and "habla" came from Spanish "hablar". I think there are more examples like this. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:51, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser If we have this figurative colloquial logic in English today to use "roast" to describe admonishment, was this a figurative logic that also applied and was widely known for Spanish in ph back then? The way they treated the Spanish word in those 1800s Spanish-Tagalog dictionaries, like the 1860 & 1835 Vocabulario de la lengua tagala and Pedro Serrano Laktaw's Diccionario Hispano-tagalo uses these words more like that they just used "asar" mostly just for cooking & food-related matters and "azar" for sudden unfortunate situations. were there instances in the past where Spanish "asar" was also used figuratively with the "to admonish" sense just like with English these days? In page 447 of the 1860 Vocabulario de la lengua tagala, it just defines "Azar" as "Biglang saconà", so for Spanish speakers back then in ph, the main default definition they understood for Spanish "azar" was that of a "sudden mishap", which could've easily gradually led to people associating it with the idea of irritation/vexation from such sudden mishaps in life. Mlgc1998 (talk) 11:09, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

@Mlgc1998: I think we can go back and forth with this, but definitely both what I said and what you said isn't enough to conclusively say which word is the origin. So I think it's better to let both stay in the entry. Even Zorc's slang dictionary lists both "asar" and "azar" so I think it's safe we list both.

However, just for the sake of discussion (because well it's fun to discuss words lol), the word "asar" did not exist in Tagalog until recently. If you notice, no Tagalog dictionary lists the word "asar" (any word borrowed from Spanish that is spelled "asar") until modern slang dictionaries and UP Diksiyonaryong Filipino. So this is a very new definition, a colloquial word. So the next question is, based on sources, which word do we have evidence that it has been borrowed into a Philippine language ever since the 19th century and before? The word "asar" (to roast). It exists in the Visayan languages, and it's past participle "asado" is in Philippine languages generally. We have no indication that the Spanish word "azar" was borrowed into Philippine languages (unless you can find a Tagalog, Visayan, Bicol, etc. wordlist or dictionary that has the word "azar" listed as a borrowed word. The Laktaw dictionary is a Spanish dictionary so it's not an indication that the word is borrowed, since not all Spanish words were borrowed into local languages). Given that, the Spanish "asar" (to roast) is much more likely since it was already borrowed beforehand. Also, it's already a verb, and the essence of the colloquial word "asar" is "to annoy, to vex someone", also a verb. So the part of speech matches. Lastly, from a Spanish speaker's viewpoint, to be honest, if you heard the word "azar", the most common definition of this word is "random" or "chance". There's a common Spanish expression "al azar" or "by chance". The definition of "misfortune" or "accident" is a side definition, at least in modern Spanish, in relation to the meaning of "random", like a "chance event" -> "accident". So "azar" in essence is not something done. It's just something that happens which you have no control over. So the definition jump from "something you have no control over" to "to annoy someone" (a controlled action) is a far jump. Anyway, if I were an authority on this, I'd say more evidence for "to roast asar" over "azar". But I guess I'll just stick to discussing this online lol. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 14:44, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

@Ysrael214: Where'd you get the idea for "ajar"? It sounds interesting, but if it were from Early Modern Spanish, the /r/ would have become /l/, and would be "asal" instead. Like how "jugar" became "sugal". --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 09:30, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser Hmmm. True. I thought that maybe we can look at <j> too instead of just < s > and <z> but the <r> can be <l> or disappear altogether in this case. An exception is Maria not being Maliya but maybe it's because the name is frequently said that Malia can't exist and friars probably won't allow the name to be tarnished. Ysrael214 (talk) 12:38, 20 September 2022 (UTC)