Talk:dorveille

RFV discussion

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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I haven't yet found it in English other than in italics or quotes. We should have it in some of Old French, Middle French, and French, whether or not we have it in English. DCDuring TALK 19:05, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Old French is listed with many citations here. However I'm not sure where to find citations for these two senses:

1. a period of wakefulness or partial wakefulness between periods of sleep.
2. the vivid sleep when one thinks one is still awake; lucid sleep

I'm going to add the definition it gives with a citation for 'dream'. Mglovesfun (talk) 21:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a pity the senses in question aren't attested; they're nice and useful. - -sche (discuss) 21:15, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd like Widsith (talk • contribs) to read the Godefroy entry and see if he interprets the citations differently to me. Mglovesfun (talk) 21:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

RFV-failed. - -sche (discuss) 22:44, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

The English and Old French senses have been restored by a user who plans to cite them. - -sche (discuss) 06:23, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

The English cites all look like mentions to me. They are explications of the use of the term in Old French texts, marked by italics and quotation marks.

I hope that there is better luck in citing the OF. Perhaps in Old French, the "well-known" work might apply to at least one, properly defined sense. Unfortunately, each alternative over-specified definition may need more than 3 cites to justify the many aspects of the definition. Indeed, I don't see how any citation can support all aspects of the definition at once.

Should the commentary citations appear under a distinct heading in citation space only, linked from Usage notes? DCDuring TALK 12:42, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

More irritating, the user has removed senses of Old French dorveille listed in the Godefroy dictionary with citations. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:57, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

I failed the first tagged Old French sense, I moved the second one to Middle French because the date of the citation is 1365. I'm not 100% sure what definition that citation backs up, but it seems about right; nothing stopping us from modifying that definition further. Also I think the citations do justify an English sense, as they are used in running English text. It doesn't seem to me that they refer unambiguously to the French word rather than being uses of the word dorveille in English. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:14, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Of course these can be added back at any time WITH a single, valid citation. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:37, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

@Mglovesfun, re the old French section: at the time I previously closed this RFV, it had the sense "faire la dorveille: feign sleep; simulate sleep", it now has "the act of feigning sleep; act of simulating sleep", but I wonder if DCDuring's splitting it as a derived term was a better approach. After all, we have a lot of "faire la ..." entries as separate entries: faire la grève, faire la moue (though those are modern French). - -sche (discuss) 18:27, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

{{look}}

So, does this pass? It is usually in italics as a borrowing, but if the definitions are accurate, it's used in English to mean something different from what it means in Middle and Old French, and so is an English word. - -sche (discuss) 01:43, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

I’d say it does. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 02:48, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Duly RFV-passed. - -sche (discuss) 19:48, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

faire la dorveille

Yes we could split that out of the entry. Depends if that sense of dorveille is only used in 'faire la dorveille'. I can't really answer that definitively. Mglovesfun (talk) 22:31, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not, though this would appear to be a set expression, like faire la grève and many others. kwami (talk) 16:09, 8 October 2012 (UTC)