Talk:literatuur

@Rua, Morgengave, Mnemosientje, Lambiam, DrJos: Do any of you recognise the pronunciation of <i> as /iː/? It sounds very strange to me, I always use and hear /i/ (and I used to occasionally hear /ɪ/, which seems old-fashioned to me). ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 12:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I can't imagine this with a long vowel either. —Rua (mew) 14:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that vowel should be short — Mnemosientje (t · c) 10:44, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I cannot say I am an expert on phonetics, but somewhat in general my impression is that in Dutch unstressed syllables rarely are pronounced with a long vowel. For example, the pronunciation given for apart is IPA^(key): /aːˈpɑrt/, but I hear [aˈpɑrt], or even [ɑˈpɑrt]. Likewise, telefoon is supposed to sound like IPA^(key): /teː.ləˈfoːn/, but I hear [te.ləˈfoːn], or even [tɪ.ləˈfoːn]. En populair sounds to me like [po.pyˈlɛːr] (but not [pɔ.pyˈlɛːr]), even though Appendix:Dutch pronunciation does not recognize /o/ as a Dutch phoneme. Of course, as in any language, there are also differences between speakers as well as regional differences I’m not aware of – I’ve hardly been in the eastern parts. The pronunciation /ˌlɪ.tə.raːˈtyr/ may reflect the alternative spelling litteratuur.^[1] --Lambiam 21:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I'd file this under the general vowel weakening that occurs in unstressed syllables in Dutch. It can happen to a greater or lesser extent. politie could have short [o], it could have [ə], or it could be deleted entirely. This wide variation is hard to capture in IPA, because it's kinda automatic and predictable and at the same time would cause the number of transcriptions to explode. Either way, short [o] and long [oː] must clearly be the same phoneme, in allophonic variation depending on the stress. This is presumably why some linguists omit the length and consider the quality the primary distinction, although of course there are known loanwords that have a phonemically different length. —Rua (mew) 08:54, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

@Lambiam Seconding what Rua said, I'd add that delengthening seems less common in closed syllables and that it might be less common for diphthongised long vowels. For me /oː/ is generally (f.e. not before /r/ or /i̯/) [oʊ̯] and I don't reduce /oː/ often, even in unstressed positions. /eː/ on the other hand is rather often reduced to [e] in my lect, even when stressed. ←₰-→ Lingo ^Bingo _Dingo (talk) 13:18, 5 July 2020 (UTC)