User talk:Ardahan Karabağ

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Apisite (talk) 15:12, 14 July 2021 (UTC)

Multiple etymologies

My edit message may not have been clear. I was referring to this statement in Wiktionary:Entry layout: "Note that in the case of multiple etymologies, all subordinate headers need to have their levels increased by 1 in order to comply with the fundamental concept of showing dependence through nesting." Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:46, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Qaynaqlar

Proto məqalələri oluşturanda qaynaqlar ekləsən nə olur? Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 05:58, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Merhabalar, teşekkür ederim bir kaç kaynaktan bakıyordum 1-2 falandır. Ve pek önemsemiyordum ama kaynaklar güvenilirlik ve doğruluk bakımından önemlidir. Kullandığım kaynakları belirtmeye çalışacağım. Bazen belirtemeyebilirim de çünkü Wictionary'de yeniyim :) ama elimden geleni yapacağım. İyi günler... Arbasun (talk) 07:23, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Görürəm ki əsasən EDALdan istifadə edirsiniz. Pək eyi. Məsələn, dil məqaləsinə baxalım: dil. Görə bildiyimiz kimi əmələ gələn keçid olduqca uzundur. Ona görə Altaic etymologynın yanındakı "+" işarəsinə basıb Turkic: *dɨl / *dil +a tıklayırız. Gördüyümüz kimi əmələ gələn keçid daha qısadır: dil. Keçidin içində belə bir parça var: +84&root. Bu nömrə kökün nömrəsidir. Onu köçürürük və bizim öz şablonumuza salırıq: {{R:trk-pro:SDM|*dɨl / *dil|84}}. Vəssalam.

Sonra, baxırıq EDAL-dakı dil məqaləsəinin lap aşağısına, orda Comments bölümündə daha bir neçə qaynaq var. Onları köçürmək olduqca önəmlidir.

• EDT = {{R:trk:Clauson|page=}}
• VEWT = {{R:trk:VEWT|page=}}
• ЭСТЯ = {{R:trk:ESTJa|page=|vol=}}
• Лексика = {{R:trk:SIGTJa|page=}}
• TMN = {{R:TMN|page=|vol=}}
• Егоров, Stachowski və sairə üçün hənüz şablonumuz yoxdur, hətta onlar önəmli deyillər.

Haydi, Allaha əmanət. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 08:37, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Teşekkür ederim. Anladığım kadarını yapmaya çalışacağım. Aklımda "tepe" kelimesi var birazcık zor olacak çünkü diğer Türk dilleri hakkında pek fazla sözlük yok (aslında benim kullandığım bir tane var ama her sözcük yok). Eğer yaparsam kaynağı belirtmeye çalışağacım. Kendinize iyi bakın... Arbasun (talk) 09:14, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Qadan alım, Classical Nahuatl hara, Proto-Türkcə hara? Allaha xatir, kefli olanda Vikilüğəti redaktə etməginən. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 14:59, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Evet orada bir hata yapmışım çünkü bir kaynakta görmüştüm. Özür dilerim ve haklısınız 🤔 Arbasun (talk) 17:20, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Karşılaştırsam bile modern Türkçe ile Azerbaycan dilini karşılaştırmam lazımdı, belki uzun zaman önce yerli Amerika halkı sibiryadayken bu ödünçleme olmuş olabilir. Ama o da çok eskiye dayanır ki pek de olanak yok. Büyük ithimalle bu durum bir tesadüf. Evet birazcık yanlışlık etmişim o konuda. Neyse, kendinize iyi bakın (benim zamanıma göre) İyi geceler... Arbasun (talk) 17:28, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Davetiye

Merhaba, özel iletişim kurabilmemiz için e-posta adresinize ihtiyacım var. Dilerseniz bir davetiye göndermek istiyorum. BurakD53 (talk) 18:53, 16 August 2021 (UTC+3)

Merhabalar, yaşımın birazcık küçük olduğunu düşünüyorum bunun için ama şimdiden karar vermek istemiyorum. E postam ardahankrbg@gmail.com Arbasun (talk) 16:07, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

akiz

I usually avoid adding inflections to dialectal words, because they are often inflected differently than the standard language. Or are the Turkish dialects regular? I don't know Turkish. Vahag (talk) 21:43, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

As a Turkish speaker, I haven't noticed that this noun exists until you created the entry. But I added the definite accusative and the plural form according to the Turkish grammar rules. That is a dialectal word, so it could be a bit different too. It is not clear. But you are doing the right thing, I'm going to undo. Ardahan (talk) 22:02, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

It is a Hamshen word. You would not have heard it. Vahag (talk) 22:23, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Comparisons

Adding unsourced Altaic comparisons is not allowed. There is a reason we banned Proto-Altaic and that is the fact that the Altaic family is complete nonsense. All comparisons must be sourced, ideally to something else than EDAL, whose cross-family comparisons are not trustworthy. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 20:38, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

The relationship between these languages are not just because they share a common ancestor, but 100% had some influences and interactions that probably happened very long years ago. Of course there are also going to be linguistically similarities between these languages, which are similar by culture, traditions, sentence structure, urheimat and etc... Are there any agreement about banning Altaic theory on this site? Since I'm new to Wiktionary, I should be aware of that too. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 20:50, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

On the reconstruction of *béken-

While I understand that the Chuvash form does seem to point to *béken- I don't understand what the root of the verb would be, it indicates a root *bék that does not exist, unless it is a variant of *bég. Yorınçga573 (talk) 22:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Proto-Türkçe'de kökteki *-g- sesi ek alınca benzeşmeye uğrayabilir. *boguŕ (boğaz) > *bokuŕ-dak (Adem elması). Çok büyük ihtimalle burdaki değişim *beken- fiilinde de geçerli. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 22:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Evet, bana da bu mantıklı geldi. Bu arada yanlışlıkla béken-bégen geri gönderme döngüsüne sokmuşuz X). Yorınçga573 (talk) 22:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Ben de anlamadım eski haline götürecektim de beceremedim. 2 yıldır bu sitedeyim bir türlü bazı şeyleri beceremedim :D Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 22:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Şu an düzelmiş, bég'den gelme olasılığını da yazıyorum. Yorınçga573 (talk) 22:52, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

👍🏻 Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 22:53, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

We did not reconstruct it, see in beğenmek, reconstruction is coming from EDAL. If it comes from the word bey, bey has a long vowel. EDAL reconstructed it correct. It's not clear that it comes from bey. BurakD53 (talk) 01:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

I only added it as a plausabality. I also don't see why it needs a long vowel in reconstruction, none of the descendents appear to point to it. Yorınçga573 (talk) 04:57, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Turkmen sometimes loses its long vowel. Also, the intervocalic k after long vowel becomes ğ/g/y in Oghuz. BurakD53 (talk) 12:13, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't VkV already cause it to become g? Ex: *köküŕ? Yorınçga573 (talk) 12:31, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

That's rare. *köküŕ became *kögüŕ in only Oghuz, we see from descendants. All intervolcalic k sounds turn into g/ğ in Kipchak. BurakD53 (talk) 12:43, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Right, but this does not have Kipchak proof right? So it should remain inconclusive wether or not it has a long vowel, especially considering how uncertain Oghuz can be with its intervocalic -k-. I'm going to add an alternative reconstruction section though. Yorınçga573 (talk) 13:09, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

If it had a long vowel as kööküz, it would be written as gögüs in Turkmen, but it's göwüs, from kögüz. BurakD53 (talk) 13:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, fair enough Yorınçga573 (talk) 13:26, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

Working link for Etimologičeskij slovarʹ tjurkskix jazykov

Do you have a working link for a pdf of Etimologičeskij slovarʹ tjurkskix jazykov? The one in the references section leads to an error page for me, thanks in advance =) Yorınçga573 (talk) 15:27, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I do have only volume 5 and 3 I guess, write your e mail here, I'll send you. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 15:42, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I'd rather not share my email here, do you have Discord? I'll send you mine if so Yorınçga573 (talk) 15:44, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't use dc so much but I have an account, you can send Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 15:45, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Ok it's "emstar" (just that, as dc removed the numbers) Yorınçga573 (talk) 15:46, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Ana Türkçe *teŋ ile ilgili

Selam,

Teŋ sayfasına koyduğunuz Eski Çince kökene bir kaynak gösterebilir misiniz? Göstermezseniz etimoloji başlığını sileceğim. Saygılarımla,

Newgrass 82 (talk) 05:28, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Gerard Clauson Çince kökenli olmadığını söylemekle birlikte, Çince bir kaynak olan Xiandai Hanyu Cidian'ın 227. sayfasında ve Räsänen'in “Versuch eines Etymologischen Wörterbuchs der Turk-Sprachen (Helsinki, 1969)" eserinde de Çince olduğu yazmaktadır. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 14:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Kars dialect is not Turkish

Derleme sözlüğünde geçen hamı, kayçı, dözmek, isdi, kömey, sümüh, maşın, vb. gibi kelimeler Türkiye Türkçesinin bir ağzı değil, Azerbaycan Türkçesi ve ağzıdır. Kars-Iğdır-Ağrı-Van bölgesi ve bu bölgeden göçen göçmenlerin dili Azerbaycan Türkçesi kabul edilir. O nedenle bu kelimeler Turkish değildir. BurakD53 (talk) 21:12, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Tekrar söylüyorum, derleme sözcüğü dediğin şey zaten Türkiye Türkçesi Ağızları Sözlüğü. Ardahanlı bir Karapapak olarak elbette ağzımız Azerbaycan şivesine yakın ama tamamen aynı değil. İkisinin arasında bir köprü görevi görüyor ama sonuçta bu şehirler Türkiye toprakları içerisinde yani Türkçeye dahil sayılıyor. Türkçe Vikisözlükte de böyle Vikipedide de böyle. He ayrıca dediğin şehirlerdeki Azerbaycan Türkleri yüzyıllardır Türkiye (Osmanlı) topraklarında yaşıyor Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 21:24, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

Bu bölgeler sonradan Kafkas göçü aldı. Bölgedeki herkes yerli değil. Iğdır'ın Nahçıvan'a bağlanan bölgesi daha sonradan toprak takasıyla Türkiye Cumhuriyeti toprağı oldu. Öyle olmasaydı bile hangi kültürün etki sahasında olduğu önemli. Azerbaycan Türkçesi ile Türkiye Türkçesi birbirine yakın olsa da arasında küçümsenemeyecek bir ayrım var. Karapapakça bunun neresinde kalıyor bilemiyorum, Azerbaycan Türkçesi sayılabilir. Eğer Kafkas göçmeni Azerbaycan şivesi konuşan köylerin ağızlarını Türkçe olarak sayarsak, Kırım göçmenlerinin Kırım Tatar ağzını, Karaçay-Balkar göçmenlerin Kıpçak ağzını, Ulupamir Kırgızlarının Kırgız dilini de Türkçe saymamız gerekir. Ama saysak bile doğrudan doğal yollarla gelişmiş bir descendant olarak vermezdik. Ki Kars-Iğdır-Ağrı bölgesinde konuşan Türkçe, Azerbaycan şivesinin bir alt dalı kabul edildiği için ayrı olarak vermeye gerek yok. BurakD53 (talk) 21:48, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

We discussed this four years ago at https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/User_talk:Allahverdi_Verdizade#%D8%AE%D9%85%D8%A8%D8%B1%D9%87. Vahag (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

շնորհակալություն. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 22:40, 3 April 2025 (UTC)

The Tungusic Languages

Vovin, A., de la Fuente, J.A.A., & Janhunen, J. (Eds.). (2023). The Tungusic Languages (1st ed.). Routledge. https://doi.org/10.4324/9781315728391

Hello! I think this will be useful to you, I think you can download this book from some websites. Lerman (talk) 21:00, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Hi, I do already have the pdf of that book, but thank you for recommendation. I highly appreciate it. Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 21:36, 18 May 2025 (UTC)

Towards a New Reconstruction of the Proto-Yeniseian Sound System. Part I: Word-Initial Consonants in: International Journal of Eurasian Linguistics Volume 5 Issue 1 (2023)

Do you have this? (In my opinion, there's nothing interesting there, they're just testing a comparative method on small data and it doesn't seem to work). Lerman (talk) 11:35, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Hmm, I think I've confused you with the person who edits the Yeniseian and Turkic languages. I'm sorry, please :D Lerman (talk) 11:52, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Np, I think you confused me with @AmaçsızBirKişi (I didn't want to ping but yeah you can ask him) Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 12:58, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello Lerman, I was linked here from the Discord server. I couldn't find a non-paywalled way of reaching parts 1 and 2 of Vajda's papers, if you have access to, could you share them?

As for a small dataset, aside from Ket and Yugh, the other Yeniseian languages are (very) poorly and (oftentimes) faultily documented. The reconstruction efforts by Vajda are comparable to our current understanding of the LUCA, evidence supports it, but that said evidence is scanty and skewed towards a specific branch by a large margin. Thank you in advance!

AmaçsızBirKişi (talk) 11:16, 23 May 2025 (UTC)

Hello, any reason why you added this?

https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Reconstruction:Proto-Turkic/t%C4%81%C4%BA&diff=prev&oldid=85174497 I don't see why that'd be "highly unlikely", we don't have a secure etymology for taş anyway. AmaçsızBirKişi (talk) 16:08, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

May I genuinely know the reason why Yeniseian → Turkic loaning direction is seen more appropriate than the other way around? Because of the possibility of Xiong-nu elites being Yeniseian? or Jié people?

I don't know about the *kȫl though, it seems a Yeniseian loan, as you mentioned, but *tāĺ is more likely a native word as suggested by many linguists, and was probably loaned into Ketic branch. I am not sure about the change of PY *cewç to PKetic *tʲɯˀs. Also I think it would be yielded to *tās rather than *tāĺ.

(I also think *tāĺ is a native word considering PT urheimat was rich in rocky and watery formations.)

By the way, you can undo it. We can talk about that topic on dc more :3P Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the *ĺ we use in Proto-Turkic entries is hardly the academic norm (and is pretty much a remnant from the old EDAL-based entries we used to have,) you can make an equally valid argument on the coda sound originally being *-š and the *-l seen in Oghuric descendants being secondary developments, and from there, *tāš/*tās < *tʲɯˀs is quite probable.

The thing is, I only listed it because the source said so - though the common sense goes that if an older word exists (in this case, the ethnonym Jié, attested c. 4th century) that is more likely to be the progenitor of a word that appears later down the line (in this case, Turkic, c. 8th century.) That is not a very compelling argument, I say. The sound change /c/> /t/ is surprisingly regular, by the way.

Sure, we can talk on DC, but what there is to argue? There's like 3 lines of text in total. I'd like to hear intra-Turkic explanations, though, I can't find any myself.

AmaçsızBirKişi (talk) 18:44, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Is PY *c pronounced as /ts/, /t/ or /ʒ/ ? Ardahan Karabağ (talk) 20:45, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

It's the unvoiced palatal plosive, /c/.

AmaçsızBirKişi (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2025 (UTC)