Talk:כאב ראש

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כאב ראש

SOP, literally "pain of head". --WikiTiki89 16:47, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

But according to its definition it is used figuratively. If that’s correct, I say we could add a new line for the figurative def. and replace the literal one with {{&lit}}. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 17:36, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

I'd like to keep this, but as the creator, I may be biased, so I'll just point out that he.wikt has had this entry for more than three years (created by a native Hebrew speaker and significant contributor to that project, with many edits before and since), so clearly I'm not the only person who thinks this expression belongs in a dictionary. :-P   —Ruakh_TALK 17:59, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Come to think of it, there’s a possibility it’s idiomatic. I don’t speak Hebrew, but by analogy with Portuguese dor de cabeça, is any pain in one’s head considered a כאב ראש? If you get a cut on the scalp and squeeze a lemon on it, would you have כאב ראש? — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 18:16, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

As you surmise, כאב ראש (k'év-rósh, “head pain”) means “headache”, and can't refer to a random pain that just happens to be on the head; for the latter, I guess I'd say something like כאב בראש (k'év barósh, “pain in the head”). (Though TBH, even the latter would make me think of a headache. Interestingly, pain.org.il has a page whose URL is http://www.pain.org.il/11/כאבי-ראש/, with the term for “headaches”, but whose header is כאבים בראש, i.e. “pains in the head”. In English, too, for that matter, "head pain" makes me think of a headache, even though google:"head pain" gets lots of hits that use it alongside "headache" in ways that imply the terms' non-synonymy.) —Ruakh_TALK 21:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

English headache and Hebrew כאב ראש are no more or less figurative than the My head hurts. or כואב לי הראש. (ko'év li harósh, “The head hurts me.”). We don't need entries at My head hurts. and כואב לי הראש. just for their figurative use, so why would we need כאב ראש if it were just for the figurative use. If there's anywhere where we might want to describe such figurative uses it would be at pain, hurt, and כאב (ka'áv/k'év). As for why head pain generally does not refer to a cut that happens to be on the head, the reason is the same as for why someone who scraped his knee would not say he has knee pain and someone who got five-starred on the back wouldn't say he has back pain. --WikiTiki89 10:05, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Knee pain and back pain are still SoP because the first definition of knee refers specifically to the joint and the second noun definition of back refers specifically to the spine. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 03:35, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't head have a similar definition? Since "I feel pressure in my head." refers to the same sort of thing. Note that the word in is used the same way it would be with knee or back. There is exactly the same difference between pain in the head and pain on the head as there is between pain in the knee and pain on the knee. --WikiTiki89 10:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep. Although I don't know Hebrew it seems to be SOP, but so are German Kopfschmerz, Spanish dolor de cabeza and so forth. The latter are typically included in printed bilingual dictionaries, and IMHO we should also include them. Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 10:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I've checked my print Hebrew–English dictionaries, and: two include k'év-rósh and *no* other compounds with k'év; one includes k'ev-rósh but also several other compounds with k'év; and the other three do not include k'év-rósh at all. I also checked my print Hebrew-only dictionary, and: it does not include the literal sense of k'év-rósh, but does include the figurative phrase garám ló k'év-rósh "gave him a headache" (as in, "bothered/worried him"). —Ruakh_TALK 10:43, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I feel like most bilingual dictionaries that include dor de cabeça, dolor de cabeza, or כאב ראש, then it's only because of English headache. I wonder whether a Hebrew-Spanish, Hebrew-Portuguese, or Hebrew-Russian dictionary would include it. --WikiTiki89 16:00, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

The existence of English headache might well be a contributing factor, but IMHO it doesn't fully explain why a native Hebrew speaker created he:כאב ראש, a native Portuguese speaker created pt:dor de cabeça, and a native Spanish speaker created es:dolor de cabeza. —Ruakh_TALK 18:03, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

That's not an argument. Take a look at Wiktionary:Previously deleted entries and see all the stuff native English speakers created. Of course not all of that is English but I'm sure there are enough examples to convince you that a native speaker adding something doesn't make it non-SOP. --WikiTiki89 18:44, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I think you're misunderstanding my comment. If you re-read the comment (of yours!) that it's replying to, I think you'll see that "a native speaker adding something doesn't make it non-SOP", though true, is not really relevant. —Ruakh_TALK 19:36, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't see what you're referring to. I think the existence of he:כאב ראש is explained by different reasons from the existence of כאב ראש in professionally edited Hebrew-English dictionaries. --WikiTiki89 19:45, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough. —Ruakh_TALK 19:59, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep, based on the explanation of Ruakh: "As you surmise, כאב ראש (k'év-rósh, “head pain”) means “headache”, and can't refer to a random pain that just happens to be on the head". If that's true, then it's not SoP. -- Curious (talk) 19:27, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Did you read my explanation of that? --WikiTiki89 19:32, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Keep per Curious. DAVilla 08:49, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

• Keep, if Ruakh's happy with it. Ƿidsiþ 14:32, 20 October 2012 (UTC)

Today I stopped by a bookstore and checked several dictionaries. Here are the compounds of כאב that they included:

• Bilingual:
  • Russian: כְּאֵב בֶּטֶן = боль в животе, כְּאֵב גַּב = боль в спине, כְּאֵב גָּרוֹן = боль в горле, כְּאֵב שִׁינַּיִים = зубная боль, כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ = головная боль
  • Italian: כְּאֵב בֶּטֶן = mal di pancia/mal di stomaco, כְּאֵב גָּרוֹן = mal di gola, כְּאֵב שִׁינַּיִים = mal di denti, כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ = mal di testa
  • English: כְּאֵב־גַּב = backache, כְּאֵב־לֵב = heartache, כְּאֵב־רֹאשׁ = headache, כְּאֵב־שִׁינַּיִים = toothache
  • French: no compounds with כאב
  • Arabic: כְּאֵב בֶּטֶן, כְּאֵב גַּב, כְּאֵב גָּרוֹן, כְּאֵב שִׁינַּיִים, כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ
  • Spanish: no compounds with כאב
  • Ladino: כְּאֵב־לֵב = dolor de korason, כְּאֵבֵי־תוֹפֶת = dolores terribles
  • Hungarian: כְּאֵב־לֵב = szívfájdalom, כְּאֵב־רֹאשׁ = fejfájás/kellemetlenség/gond, כְּאֵבֵי־תוֹפֶת = pokoli fájdalom
• Monolingual:
  • Even-Shoshan: כְּאֵב אָנוּשׁ, כְּאֵב לֵב, כְּאֵבֵי תֹּפֶת, גָּרַם לוֹ כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ
  • Ariel Hamakif: כְּאֵב לֵב, כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ, כְּאֵבֵי תֹּפֶת, מְשַׁכֵּן כְּאֵבִים

(Side question for Ruakh, why does כְּאֵב שִׁינַּיִים appear before כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ in the first two? Is that an error in the dictionary?) Anyway, the bilingual dictionaries seem to treat it as SOP and only include it sometimes for convenience, except for the Hungarian one which is the only one that includes the figurative sense (kellemetlenség; gond). Even-Shoshan treats the figurative sense as belonging only to the expression גָּרַם לוֹ כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ. While Ariel Hamakif defines כְּאֵב רֹאשׁ as:

1. כְּאֵב שֶׁמֻּרְגָּשׁ בְּתוֹךְ הַגֻּלגֹּלֶת הַנּוֹבֵעַ מִמֶּתַח, מִלַּחַץ נַפְשִׁי אוֹ מֵעֵיפוּת. (pain felt in the skull caused by stress)
2. (בְּהַשְׁאָלָה) טִרְדָּה, דְּאָגָה. ((metaphorically) nuisance, worry)

So I think we should use {{&lit|כאב|ראש}} for the first sense and define two more senses as bother, nuisance and worry. --WikiTiki89 11:09, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Thinking a bit more about this, I believe it's idiomatic because it generally doesn't mean any pain of the head but more specifically pain of the brain. Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 11:40, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

Closed as kept centuries ago by DAVilla -- Liliana • 18:54, 15 April 2013 (UTC)