Talk:beat the crap out of

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beat the crap out of[edit]

Definitely sum of parts, though I'm not sure what entry we should have, maybe the crap to go with the fuck and the devil (so to speak). We also have beat the shit out of, and you can change the initial verb; kick to the crap out of; kick the shit out of. Probably many other examples, I'll happily do a Google Book search to see what the numbers are. Mglovesfun (talk) 23:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Can you explain why you think it's sum of parts? ---> Tooironic 04:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Because one of the senses of crap#Noun is shit. That is relevant because crap is a euphemism. The plausible construction of a phrase involving "crap" that cannot be managed with a literal sense, would be interpreted with the euphemistic sense. If someone can't interpret it metaphorically we have beat the shit out of. We could have entries for every non-euphemistic word that can fit into the "shit" slot, such as "stuffing", "tar", "daylights", "hell", "Jesus", "fuck", etc. (and relevant synonyms, especially euphemisms. Or we could have an appendix for the construction "to V the NP out of" and explain what can fill the V and NP slots. Note that it is an NP not just a N and there are all kinds of subtleties as to which adjuncts can modify the various nouns. For example, "living" doesn't work so well with "stuffing" and "tar", but reasonably well with the rest and excellently with "daylights". Treating each possibility lexically is absurd, though I'm sure that there are many lurking newbies who would volunteer to give their best efforts to making new entries of this type. DCDuring TALK 07:25, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
  • Keep. The SOP allegation is hard to understand for me: the allegation seems to rely on the existence of "beat the shit out of". In any case, this is non-literal language, and cannot be decoded by a non-native speaker by reading the component words of the phrase. Also, this idiom is very common by Google hits. At worst, this should be a redirect to "beat the shit out of".--Dan Polansky 09:47, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
You probably should have read my nomination in full then. It goes way beyond those two, as DCDuring says you can beat many things:
Mglovesfun (talk) 10:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
So what? How do the searches in Google books prove that this is a semantic sum of parts? Sum of which parts? Which of the six listed search terms would you keep, if any? --Dan Polansky 13:06, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
None of them. Maybe to non-natives speakers it's quite difficult, but for a native speaker this is way off idiomatic. I haven't decided what the parts are (that is, how to express it in Wiktionary terms). BTW I'd rather keep the entries than have this redirect to beat the shit out of. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:20, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

It's not sum of parts, but I don't think it's the job of a dictionary to explain the metaphors involved. Maybe it is? Not sure. The earliest form seems to have been "beat the stuffing out of" someone (as though they were a scarecrow or doll); then "beat the shit out of" developed as a more expressive and vulgar version. Then apparently the "the shit" bit was taken as simply intensive, leading to non-literal variants like "beat the fuck out of", although they are still less common. I would delete it personally, as this seems beyond the remit of a dictionary. Ƿidsiþ 16:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Actually it's a formula: "X the Y out of" where X is a verb and Y is a noun, usually a vulgar word. Remember X one's Y off? Mglovesfun (talk) 23:18, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Indeed. Just for the heck of it, I tried google:"crapped the shit out of", and whaddaya know, it gets over a dozen relevant hits. —RuakhTALK 00:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
"crapped the shit out of" seems unattestable: google books:"crapped the shit out of" and google groups:"crapped the shit out of". The hits given above by MG are from Google books; on the Google web, some of the above six phrases are very common.
The formula "V the NP out of" does not allow any free combination. So far, only two verbs have been attested on the V position. Another thing is, many non-SOP terms follow the formula "<adjective> <noun>": fitting into a formula alone does not make then exclusion-worthy. --Dan Polansky 18:55, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
So what? There are hardly any two nouns and verb that combine without some semantic limitations. DCDuring TALK 22:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Quick Books searches show ample hits for slap, punch, and thrash, and even two for eat ([1], [2], plus [3] on Usenet).​—msh210 (talk) 19:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Now added to Appendix:Snowclones. — lexicógrafa | háblame — 19:18, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. DCDuring TALK 22:20, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't think Appendix:Snowclones is a good place for this. WP, quoting Language Log, defines a snowclone in part as a "quoted or misquoted phrase or sentence that can be used in an entirely open array of different variants"; "X the Y out of" can be used in an open array of variants, but it isn't quoting or misquoting anything. All of the other items on the list would be meant or understood as allusions to the given original quotations; "beat the shit out of" is not an allusion to "kick the shit out of" nor vice versa. I'll have to think for a while to figure out where this does belong... — Beobach 08:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
NB that this entry previously existed at X the Y out of, and was moved to this form because it was the most common form: Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Archives/2007/06#X_the_Y_out_of. — Beobach 08:19, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
We should get back to that. Really what we have here is "verb the noun out of", for which almost any verb and noun can be used. Understanding that the verb portion can be infinitely substituted, what we are left with is "verb the X out of". bd2412 T 04:24, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Re 'Really what we have here is "verb the noun out of", for which almost any verb and noun can be used.' You do not really mean this literally ("almost any"), do you? From the set of all the possible pairs (verb, noun), only a tiny fraction forms an attestable phrase when substituted into the scheme "<verb> the <noun> out of". The set of all verbs that can be used on the first position is already a small fraction of the set of all transitive verbs. Furthermore, while the construction "<verb> the <noun> out of" is fairly common, not every use of this construction is idiomatic. Again, the discussed phrase is such that its meaning is unobvious from the meanings of the component words. --Dan Polansky 11:02, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Yes, almost any. I'll wash the X out of my veggies, then dance the X out of a pair of shoes, then sing the X out of a song. It is obvious that to do something, anything, such that you do "the X out of it" means to do it thoroughly and vigorously. bd2412 T 16:29, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
Going over the same ground on this is beginning to bore the living hell out of me. The subject has been discussed to death. We've milked it for all it's worth. Our lexicographic entry paradigm has run its course. It is time for soemthing new. I would welcome suggestions for something more general than snowclone and more specific than grammar to include such expressions. w:Construction grammar is the framework, but I'm not sure what a good entry would look like. Suggestions welcome. DCDuring TALK 17:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
The set of counterexamples to the "almost any verb and noun" claim is huge. To give an idea of what these counterexamples look like: "dig the sun out of", "chew the monkey out of", "damage the mushroom out of", "mind the business out of", "bend the integer out of", etc. Instead of "almost any verb and noun", you possibly mean "many verbs and several nouns".
I do admit the point that there are many attestable phrases that fit the pattern. (A common one not yet mentioned is "scare the hell out of".) I do not see how the maniness makes the phrases non-idiomatic, though. --Dan Polansky 08:13, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
One more afterthought, maybe an aside: not every phrase that fits into "<verb> the <noun phrase> out of" fits into the discussed snowclone cluster or whatever it is: "let the cat out of the bag", "get the camera out of my pocket". Some interesting searches with wildcards: google:"get the * out of *", google:"pull the * out of *". --Dan Polansky 13:56, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
That's the point I was going to make; not every combination of "get the * out of *" will be attestable where *1 and *2 are nouns. But that's not a reason to include the ones that are attested. I wouldn't want an entry for I want a biscuit because I want a polymorphism isn't attestable. Dan, I just think your logic is bad in this case. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
I do not get what you are talking about, or how it relates to my previous post. I have not suggested that every attestable non-idiomatic rendering of "get the * out of *" should be included, which you seem to imply in your response. I am saying that every attestable and idiomatic (non-sum-of-parts) rendering should be included, such as "let the cat out of the bag". Above all, I reject the claim that "let the cat out of the bag" has to be excluded because it fits "<verb> the <noun phrase> out of the <noun phrase>". --Dan Polansky 14:37, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I've been unclear to which of your comments I'm responding. My argument is simply that this isn't idiomatic. It's fully transparent to a native English speaker. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:54, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I believe you are understating the case. I would expect that anyone who hears or reads colloquial English usage and has good (EN-2?) knowledge of English generally would have no trouble getting the meaning of this expression, especially with access to a non-prudish dictionary. DCDuring TALK 14:34, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
I think the problem lies in the flexibility. I agree, I may have overstated with (any verb) the (any noun), but surely there are hundreds of verbs and hundreds of nouns yielding tens of thousands of possible combinations. For just the violence-related variations, we could:
beat/bash/bonk/hit/punch/kick/knee/elbow/smack/slap/strap/smash/smush/pummel/
hammer/main/attack/fight/assault/batter/splatter/stick/stab/murder/kill/
harm/hurt/destroy/drop/whip/whup/thrash/thump/grapple/
wrestle/squeeze/strike/shellack
the
heck/hell/devil/fuck/shit/crap/crud/stuff/stuffing/pudding/life/stars/holy Moses/
stones/mercy/tar/mush/wind/brains/sense/snap/feathers/lunch/daylights/bejeesus
out of each other.
I suppose it would be interesting, perhaps in an appendix, to gather together all of the collocations that actually meet the CFI. bd2412 T 17:49, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
┌─────────────────────────────────┘
@bd2412, 6 October 2011: So I have tried google:"shellack the daylights out of" and google:"punch the holy Moses out of", with almost no hits and no hits. So again, the assertion of there being a combinatorial explosion of attestable and idiomatic phrases of the form "<verb> the <noun phrase> out of the <noun phrase>" seems implausible. You speak of tens of thousands of possible combinations (likely an intentional hyperbole); I challenge you to find just 50 attestable combinations. --Dan Polansky 18:26, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
It's kind of sleazy class of phrase and I think that muddies the water. Maybe a separate thread under rfd: beat the stuffing out of would help bring the issue into proper focus?Geof Bard 20:46, 18 February 2011 (UTC)
  • Here is a list of attestable variants of this construction. - -sche (discuss) 19:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Possibly: rip the crap out of, rip the stuffing out of, rip the shit out of (but these may mean literally ripping things out of something).
  1. rip the fuck out of (seems to be of this construction, unlike 'rip the crap out of')
  2. beat the crap out of
  3. beat the living crap out of
  4. beat the holy crap out of
  5. beat the stuffing out of
  6. beat the shit out of
  7. beat the living shit out of
  8. beat the ever-living shit out of
  9. beat the holy shit out of
  10. beat the daylights out of
  11. beat the living daylights out of
  12. beat the fuck out of
  13. beat the living fuck out of
  14. beat the holy fuck out of
  15. beat the hell out of
  16. beat the living hell out of
  17. beat the holy hell out of
  18. knock the crap out of
  19. knock the living crap out of
  20. knock the holy crap out of
  21. knock the stuffing out of
  22. knock the living stuffing out of
  23. knock the shit out of
  24. knock the living shit out of
  25. knock the holy shit out of
  26. knock the fuck out of
  27. knock the living fuck out of
  28. knock the hell out of
  29. knock the living hell out of
  30. kick the crap out of
  31. kick the living crap out of
  32. kick the stuffing out of
  33. kick the living stuffing out of
  34. kick the shit out of
  35. kick the living shit out of
  36. kick the fuck out of
  37. kick the living fuck out of
  38. kick the hell out of
  39. kick the living hell out of
  40. punch the crap out of
  41. punch the living crap out of
  42. punch the stuffing out of
  43. punch the shit out of
  44. punch the living shit out of
  45. punch the fuck out of
  46. punch the living fuck out of
  47. punch the hell out of
  48. punch the living hell out of
  49. whomp the crap out of
  50. whomp the stuffing out of
  51. whomp the shit out of
  52. whomp the hell out of
  53. trample the crap out of
  54. trample the shit out of
  55. trample the hell out of
  56. smash the crap out of
  57. smash the living crap out of
  58. smash the stuffing out of
  59. smash the shit out of
  60. smash the living shit out of
  61. smash the hell out of
  62. smash the living hell out of
  63. wallop the crap out of
  64. wallop the shit out of
  65. wallop the hell out of
  66. destroy the shit out of
  67. destroy the hell out of
  68. obliterate the shit out of
  69. ban the crap out of
  70. ban the shit out of
  71. ban the fuck out of
  72. ban the hell out of
  73. murder the shit out of
  74. murder the hell out of
  75. kill the crap out of
  76. kill the shit out of
  77. kill the living shit out of
  78. kill the fuck out of
  79. kill the hell out of
  80. slice the crap out of
  81. slice the shit out of
  82. slice the fuck out of
  83. slice the hell out of
  84. bite the crap out of
  85. bite the shit out of
  86. bite the fuck out of
  87. bite the hell out of
  88. break the crap out of
  89. break the shit out of
  90. break the fuck out of
  91. break the hell out of
  92. nuke the crap out of
  93. nuke the shit out of
  94. nuke the fuck out of
  95. nuke the hell out of
  96. slap the crap out of
  97. slap the living crap out of
  98. slap the shit out of
  99. slap the living shit out of
  100. slap the fuck out of
  101. slap the living fuck out of
  102. slap the hell out of
  103. slap the living hell out of
  104. thrash the crap out of
  105. thrash the living crap out of
  106. thrash the shit out of
  107. thrash the living shit out of
  108. thrash the fuck out of
  109. thrash the hell out of
  110. thrash the living hell out of
  • Possibly melt the crap out of, melt the hell out of; possibly vote the shit out of (look on Usenet, haha), tolerate the hell out of, fuck the cap out of, fuck the stuffing out of, fuck the shit out of, love the crap out of, love shit out of, love the fuck out of, or do those use (a) different sense(s)?.
  • I express no opinion at this time on whether beat the crap out of should be kept or deleted. - -sche (discuss) 18:59, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
    It seems some of the listed phrases are attestable only via Usernet groups: google books:"slice the crap out of", google books:"kill the crap out of", google books:"wallop the crap out of", google books:"knock the living stuff out of", google books:"trample the crap out of", google books:"smash the living crap out of". Assuming now that the above list is one of more than 50 borderline attestable phrases and that someone is bothered with the sheer number, the solution to this bother would be to include only the most common phrases, such as google books:"beat the crap out of" with its 597 Google books hits, and exclude google books:"murder the hell out of" with its 5 Google books hits. The included entries could contain a usage note that describes the variability of the pattern. I do admit that the number of Google books hits is not a CFI consideration, but excluding some of the rare phrases while including the really common ones seems okay to me, serving the users of the dictionary well. --Dan Polansky 19:29, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
    Beat, kick, and punch the tar out of are all attestable on Google Books (although differing in the number of hits by orders of magnitude). bd2412 T 19:37, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
    Usenet is perfectly valid attestation unless we are becoming more literary/prescriptivist. I seems to me to be a better reflection of a large class of contemporary colloquial speech than dialogue in typical fiction. It's often not to my personal taste, but the same can be said of much speech. DCDuring TALK 20:03, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
    I agree, I was just pointing out that "tar" is a productive "Y" in an "X the Y out of" formulation. So are "snot" and "piss". I suppose it would be reasonable to have one entry at the most common "X the Y out of" variation, with all other attestable variations pointing to it. bd2412 T 14:46, 7 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Non-violent derivations like "vote the shit out of" lead me to believe we should cover this construction somewhere. However, we have no good place to keep such constructions: VERB the NOUN out of/X the Y out of is not intuitive, but adding all attested variants, even as redirects to one entry or appendix, is not ideal (because the term becomes sum-of-parts, because such a variety of parts add up to the sum). - -sche (discuss) 20:22, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

kept as there isn't really any kind of consensus right now either way. -- Liliana 16:49, 8 October 2011 (UTC)