User talk:Joonas07

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! PseudoSkull (talk) 17:51, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Rhymes pages

I think you're doing it wrong... Equinox ◑ 21:25, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Right now I'm making rhyme categories for Estonian (Category:Estonian rhymes/e-, Category:Estonian rhymes/u-, etc) and I'm going to add pages to those later on. How would you do it then? Joonas07 21:29, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

What is the trailing hyphen in the page title for? e.g. in English we have Rhymes:English/əʊz and it displays as -əʊz (not əʊz-). Equinox ◑ 21:32, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Your example is a rhyme page not a rhyme category - I'm making categories. I'm not going to do that for rhyme pages. Joonas07 21:38, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake. Sorry. The fact they're blank (not yet filled) raised my suspicion basically. Equinox ◑ 21:39, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

It's okay. I'm going to add pages when the categories are complete. Joonas07 21:41, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

I don't think Rhymes:Estonian/ine is how rhymes work. These terms are, for the most part, stressed on the first syllable. —Rua (mew) 14:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

Vowel lengths in Estonian IPA

Hi, am I right in thinking that in kaheksateistkümnene, for example, there should be two overlong vowels (the -ei- and the -ü-)? The {{et-IPA}} template claims to include the overlength when you add a "`" symbol but it doesn't seem to work. Cheers, BigDom 12:37, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi, the -ei- and -ü- are both overlong vowels, but the -küm- syllable (and thus the -ü- vowel) isn't stressed. Have a great day! - Joonas07 (talk) 15:47, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

But this is my point - shouldn't the template indicate the length of the -ei-? At the moment it's just long (diphthong), rather than overlong. Am I mistaken? BigDom 16:01, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

You mean, that the ` symbol should make a visual difference in the IPA, as in adding the ː mark after the diphtong? In my opinion, it isn't necessary, it makes no significant difference. - Joonas07 (talk) 19:25, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Fair enough. So in speech would you be able to tell the difference? Sorry if it's a silly question - I've been interested in Estonian for a while but the three vowel length system has really put me off so far so I'm trying to understand it a little better. BigDom 08:01, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't think any native speaker, including me, would be able to tell the difference in speech. It's not a silly question, it's perfectly normal to have a hard time understanding aspects of a completely foreign language. In my opinion, learning the system and phonology behind suprasegmental length makes it overly complicated. Even as a native speaker, I don't have a full understanding of suprasegmental length either, it just comes naturally for me. Keep on learning, you'll get it eventually! - Joonas07 (talk) 16:59, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

We sent you an e-mail

Hello Joonas07,

Really sorry for the inconvenience. This is a gentle note to request that you check your email. We sent you a message titled "The Community Insights survey is coming!". If you have questions, email surveys@wikimedia.org.

You can see my explanation here.

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 18:48, 25 September 2020 (UTC)

Estonian IPA transcriptions

Also @Strombones. I feel like the current IPA transcriptions for Estonian are quite confusing: Even though it's supposed to be phonemic, it shows semi-voicing (a purely phonetic feature), uses stress to show length and overlength, rather than length symbols (ˑː) and uses one stress symbol for both primary and secondary stress.

Looking at pool for instance, if I hadn't read the entirity of the Wikipedia page on Estonian phonology, I would have no clue as to how it's pronounced and why it's transcribed /pˈoːl/ and not /ˈpoːl/, which kind of beats the purpose of a pronunciation section: Natives usually already know how the word is pronounced, and learners can't make heads or tails of the transcription system.

As such I have quickly written an alternative IPA module (Module:User:Thadh/et-IPA; see also User:Thadh/test for a simple demonstration), which I personally feel is more useful to readers. Now, I do not speak Estonian, so it's probably incomplete, contains some errors and uses symbols that you might not feel comfortable with (I don't know the Estonian tradition of indicating length and stress, so I just used ˈ'*- and hoped for the best).

So, what do you think? And if you agree regarding the complexity of the current module, can you spot some errors in my module so I can fix them? Feel free to edit the test page, or use {{T:User:Thadh/et-IPA}} yourself to test out some features. Ette aitäh! Thadh (talk) 12:24, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Hey! To be honest, I've never paid much attention to the IPA module, and I've only used it for indicating places where spelling doesn't indicate pronunciation (such as palatalisation, overlong vowels, or dialectal/informal pronunciations). The /p'o:l/ instead of /'po:l/ thing is taken from ÕS, which marks stress this way. Fixing this would be good, I don't know why it was done this way here. For the stops, the current method of marking gbd with the devoiced diacritic is fine and is used elsewhere. For overlong vowels, the current method of ":" for long and "::" for overlong seems fine imo, and I'm pretty sure this is the most common transcription. The half-length diacritic isn't wrong per se, but idk. As for your examples, "händ" and "hänt" shouldn't be homophones. Final -d and -t are always distinguished, they are only merged initially (in foreign words), and in some cases you might even hear some sort of voicing here for written gbd, especially for partially adopted words. Strombones (talk) 13:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I disagree with the current method of ":" for long and "::" for overlong being fine, I think it's more neat if "ˑ" represented long and ":" overlong. Joonas07 (talk) 14:22, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

The Estonian IPA template is indeed not very thorough or well put together and I agree there are quite a few problems with it. I don't know why the stress marker is before the vowel and not before the syllable being stressed in a lot of Estonian entries, but it's most likely taken directly from ÕS (the ÕS entry for 'pool'). In every Estonian entry I've created myself I've always put the stress marker before the syllable, not the vowel. Taking a look at your test page now:

• bdg should not be transcribed as /ptk/, the current transcription of /b̥d̥ɡ̊/ works well. Therefore, ptk should be transcribed as such, /ptk/, not /pˑ, tˑ, kˑ/.
• About secondary stress, it would make more sense for it to be represented by a new parameter, rather than - (or at the very least +) – secondary stress mostly occurs in compound words. I have always done compound words as two separate parameters in the template (for example in vastupidavus: {{et-IPA|vastu|pidavus}}, which creates IPA^(key): /ˈvɑstu/, [ˈvɑstu], /ˈpid̥ɑvus/, [ˈpid̥ɑvus]). I'm not sure if it's possible to code that the second (and third etc) parameters have seconday stress, but if not, the more logical option would be to use + ({{et-IPA|vastu+pidavus}})
• I don't know about * to represent half-length either, but I don't have a better proposal.

(just now read Strombones's answer as well and realised it mostly mirrors what I said) Joonas07 (talk) 14:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Also, there needs to remain some way of showing the pronunciation of words that are not stressed on the first syllable, which the current template enables but yours doesn't (?). If your template is to be implemented, there will probably emerge more issues that I didn't think about right now, as it's being used for different words. Joonas07 (talk) 14:26, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

The way with my template for now is just adding the stress mark (ˈ) before the stressed syllable, like IPA^(key): /ɑi̯ˈtæh/, [ɑi̯ˈtæh] (it doesn't add initial stress if it can find a stress mark in the first parameter), maybe there's a better way to do this?

Sure, I could change p-pˑ to b̥-p quite easily, that's not a problem; Would that also be applicable to f-fˑ and ʃ-ʃˑ?

I used ˑ for long and ː for overlong, since that's also what I used for Ingrian, which would make cross-language comparison much easier, but I don't mind changing the Estonian equivalents to ː, ːː respectively if you agree on that.

As for using different parameters for stressed elements: Does Estonian have words that have different stressed variants? For instance, Finnish and Ingrian have the word maailma, which can be stressed either as a compound or as one word. If Estonian has such words as well, it would be impossible to note that if we decide to use parameters to indicate stressed elements. But as for using <+> instead of <->, sure, that's an easy fix. Thadh (talk) 15:02, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Would that also be applicable to f-fˑ and ʃ-ʃˑ?

No, I think it should only apply to stops, and I don't even know if Estonian has any words with "f" or "š" in such a position.

I used ˑ for long and ː for overlong

I think this is fine.

Does Estonian have words that have different stressed variants?

I guess all shorter compound words could technically also be pronounced as one word. Joonas07 (talk) 16:04, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Alright, I've changed the module accordingly, and added a few more tests to User:Thadh/test. Could you check whether it's correct, maybe add a couple of testcases if you don't see how a feature is tested? Also, if you come up with a better way to mark stress, I'm open to suggestions! Thadh (talk) 17:31, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Added some notes on your test page. If anything else springs to mind, I'll update there. Joonas07 (talk) 19:02, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

So, Surjection helped me out and switched the modules, but this means that the pages that had IPA pronunciation now need to be fixed by hand. You can see them all at Special:WhatLinksHere/Module:et-IPA/old. Make sure to let me know if anything needs fixing or if you need help with anything! Thadh (talk) 15:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi! Sorry for the long wait, September/October is usually really busy for me. I looked at your test cases page and the paper you linked, and the only thing I would change is that even word-final stops should be voiceless /bd̥ɡ̊/, not /ptk/ (IPA^(key): /ˈykskord̥/, [ˈykˑskort] should be [ˈykˑs.kord̥] etc.). I don't really have time to go into this in-depth or fix old pages manually. The Estonian language I find is really under-represented on Wiktionary, so there's probably a lot more to do. If and when I find time for that, I might find many more places for improvement, but until then, the current module is quite OK! Joonas07 (talk) 20:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

Alrighty, no rush, the old module isn't going anywhere ;) Take your time, and make sure to approach me when you come around to it. Thadh (talk) 20:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

If we are changing the pronunciation template, could we also copy Finnish "fi-pronunciation" and add rhymes and syllabification/hyphenation automatically? And even homophones if that's even possible. Supevan (talk) 07:25, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

võtma partitive

Is võtma (“to take”) really partitive/atelic? The usage examples look like they're using the 'accusative' (nominative or genitive) to me: võta kott ja lähme! (instead of kotti), vares võttis leivatüki noka vahele (instead of leivatükki). (The Finnish cognate, ottaa, is fairly often telic). — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 12:25, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, you are right. I usually just look at what is in Sõnaveeb. It is atelic in its subdefinitions though. Joonas07 (talk) 15:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

Changes to "aasta"

Tere, just two questions about your changes to "aasta". I understand why you removed aasta- and changed the IPA template, but why did you remove "inh+" and two references? Just curious, because that seemed correct to me. Supevan (talk) 07:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

For consistency. Yes, they are correct in principle, but most Estonian entries don't use inh+ or the two removed reference templates. Joonas07 (talk) 17:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better to start adding them then :D Inh+ was recently introduced, so I don't think any language is really consistent with it yet, and more references is always a good thing. Supevan (talk) 19:52, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Supevan: That's definitely not true: Many languages are very consistent with its usage or not usage. Finnish and Ingrian are two languages that consistently don't use {{inh+}}, while Slavic languages are a bunch that consistently do use them. Not everyone likes the plus templates. Thadh (talk) 19:54, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Then the whole thing is just inconsistent, there's no reference point so how would one know whether or not you can use it. I've been using it for Estonian entries I've created. Supevan (talk) 20:00, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

@Supevan: You discuss it with other editors of the language (such as you do here), and come to a common conclusion. If no conclusion can be drawn (which is an extreme scenario, I would suggest you do decide on something), you can opt for a rule like "the choice of using either template stands with the person who adds it first". Thadh (talk) 20:03, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

tiūþer

Where did you find that this noun is neuter? Stríðsdrengur (talk) 22:45, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I think it's safe to assume that, as its predecessors as well as its modern Swedish descendant are neuter gender. Joonas07 (talk) 20:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Module:et-nominals - 22e

Õigus jah, minule täitsa uudiseks et sellised vormid nagu "riigesse" on üldsegi olemas. Eks ma loen liiga vähe :)

Kõnekeeles on ikkagi ainult "riikidesse" - võiks panna alla mingi märkuse, a la "short plural forms with -e- are uncommon". Strombones (talk) 19:06, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Mhm, nii, nagu on märge pikkade sisseütlevate kohta (st nt pigem "riiki" kui "riigisse"). Joonas07 (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

jahe

What do you think of this Estonian entry? The etymology doesn't convince me and there's a lot missing from the page, would you like to do something about it? Stríðsdrengur (talk) 17:24, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Improved the entry. The etymology is correct, but I clarified it a bit. Joonas07 (talk) 18:26, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

thanks Stríðsdrengur (talk) 18:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Discord

Hi, I was wondering if you'd like to join our WT:Discord server, it's handy for quick communication :) Thadh (talk) 13:35, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

There's a discord?! Sure I'll join. Joonas07 (talk) 18:12, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

kuritöö

Hi Joonas, Surjection and I would like to know if the declension pattern of kuritöö is 26 or 26i, thanks for your time :) Stríðsdrengur (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

26i, as in the article. (you and Surjection?🤨) Joonas07 (talk) 18:18, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Eh... It's a long story, it's just that on the Sõnaveeb website it states that the declension is type 26, so I came to talk to you since you are a native Stríðsdrengur (talk) 18:24, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

Linking to specific sections

Hi - changes like this aren't a good idea, because (1) we lose the proper script handling for Cyrillic, and (2) it links to the wrong section as soon as someone adds a new language above Russian with an etymology 2 section. We use {{senseid}} and {{etymid}} for doing this, which is added to the relevant part of the target page, and you then simply use id= to link to the right place. In this case, I've added {{etymid|ru|but}} to etymology 2 of the Russian section, which is now linked to from the Estonian entry with {{ncog|ru|а|id=but}}. Theknightwho (talk) 14:22, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Module errors

Right now CAT:E is flooded with false positives, so you may not be aware that {{et-decl-puri}} and the entries that use it (puri, tari and veli) all have module errors. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:29, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Ok, found the mistake. I set gradation to true, which it is, but the module doesn't support that and I don't know how to code 🙃 Joonas07 (talk) 17:57, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Hymns by Plethon

What do you think of the idea of translating the hymns by Plethon into any traditional language of Europe? -- Apisite (talk) 22:55, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Uuh sure ? Joonas07 (talk) 23:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)