Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2009-03/Removing vote requirements for policy changes

Removing vote requirements for policy changes

• Voting on:

That the wording of Template:policy be changed from "It should not be modified without a VOTE" to "It should not be modified without discussion and consensus. Any substantial or contested changes require a VOTE."

Let's face it folks, our policy documents are generally out of date. I can't count the number of times that I've had to tell a new contributor, "Well, even if it's not written down anywhere, it's still policy." This is both confusing and frustrating, especially for new editors. This vote is an attempt to remove one of the greatest hurdles to keeping our policy documents up to date with current practice. In short, it means that people can make edits to policy documents like WT:ELE and WT:CFI without a vote. However, if there is disagreement (probably often taking the form of a rollback of the edits), then the issue is taken to the Beer parlour. If a strong consensus is achieved, then the changes become no longer "contested" and can be remade. This does not entirely do away with votes, as they will still be useful in contentious situations, and will be especially important in major switches of policy. However, it does allow us to cut through a lot of red tape to align official policy with de facto policy. Props to Visviva for making the initial BP proposal of this. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• Vote ends: 23:59 29 April 2009 (UTC)
• Vote started: 6:15 31 March 2009 (UTC)

• Vote created: -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
• Discussion:

  WT:BP#Revising_Template:policy

Support

1. Support -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC) (as nominator)
2. Support Visviva 06:27, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
3. Support Neskaya kanetsv 06:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC) Much needed. --Neskaya kanetsv 06:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
4. Support Bequw → ¢ • τ 06:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
5. Support —Michael Z. 2009-03-31 08:03 z
6. Support Eivind (t) 08:31, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
7. Support † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 13:20, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
8. Support Conrad.Irwin 16:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
9. Strong support —Ruakh_TALK 23:03, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
10. Support —Rod (A. Smith) 04:18, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
11. Strong support DAVilla 19:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose Robert Ullmann 11:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC) very strongly oppose and I would ask everyone above to reconsider this very seriously

   The voting process is not onerous; it takes only a few minutes to set, and a proper amount of time to specify the change. If you are not willing to take this degree of time and care, you should not be editing policy documents.

   The voting process exists to document the consensus resulting from proper proposal and discussion. If that has in fact occurred (the premise of the proposal) then a vote is simple. If it has not, then a vote becomes problematic. If you are having trouble bringing something to a vote, it means that you haven't gotten the needed consensus. (Or that you don't really understand what you are doing.) The problem is not the voting process, and the premise above that there has been sufficient debate has not been met. Making an end run around the voting process to make what is then almost certainly an ill-advised change to ELE or another policy document is not a solution.

   There have been several frustrated attempts recently to propose changes. In each case the problem was not the requirement for a vote, but the requirement that the change(s) be properly discussed (before any vote), be coherent and understood. And: not be very bad changes. The voting process is not the problem.

   If passed, this will result in a devolved state of affairs in which every change to ELE or another policy document is immediately met with a revert and a demand for a vote. Why? Because in any case in which consensus has been achieved (the premise above), a vote is simple and easy. The procedure described in this proposal is only useful when someone wants to pretend that consensus has been achieved when it has not and try to force a change. Very simply, if the premise of the proposal above has been met, voting is not a problem; the only possible purpose and use of the proposal is to evade a vote that would and should fail. Robert Ullmann 11:24, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

   Two more points:

   • All policy does not have to be crammed into (e.g.) WT:ELE. It is too big already, and it is is simple to create other pages that describe something in detail, without having to have a vote or anything (until eventually making them full policy). So the argument that voting gets in the way of writing things down is completely invalid.
   • When someone considers some "minor" change to be not "substantiative", the probability that it is in fact minor and does not seriously break something is a close approximation to zero. (;-) Robert Ullmann 11:31, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

     • You make excellent points. The problem is that votes take forever, and that (with all apologies) people vote "oppose" for bad reasons — things like "yes, these changes are good, but they don't cover some case that isn't covered currently, either." Atelaes and Visviva's proposal solves this issue by removing any expectation that the voted-on proposal be perfect. Another problem is that people vote "oppose" for minor issues of wording; in theory, the process of discussion should resolve that, but in practice, there seem to be a lot of editors who don't scrutinize the wording carefully until the vote has begun, at which point they object. (It's totally understandable — who wants to spend time reading each new draft of a vote? — but it's unfortunate.) Atelaes and Visviva's proposal solves this issue by allowing wording to continue to be tweaked, as long as there continues to be consensus. And all these problems deter people from starting any votes, even ones that appear (in BP discussion) to be unobjectionable.

       Of course, the current proposal doesn't solve the biggest problem, which is that ELE and CFI aren't actually policy at all, but rather a poor approximation to policy, such that requiring >75–80% consensus doesn't work (there's no stance that has anywhere near 75–80% consensus, at least none that's as detailed as CFI and ELE currently are); but I don't have a solution to that problem, and apparently Atelaes and Visviva don't, either.

       —Ruakh_TALK 21:57, 5 April 2009 (UTC)