Module talk:hu-pron
I think technika, cech, echt, stich (and their derivations and compounds) should have /ç/ rather than /x/. (I've supplied it manually in the first word but it should be automatic after a front vowel and before a consonant – but not before a vowel, cf. mechanika. Also, pech and technokrata sound OK with /x/.) Adam78 (talk) 18:16, 6 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Adam78 The IPA symbol /ç/ is already listed as an allophone of /j/, as in rakj, it was implemented based on Forró Orsolya's Hangtan. So how are we going to distinguish the two? Please always check Appendix:Hungarian pronunciation before implementing something new. Panda10 (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
@Panda10 OK, but the current pronunciation uses square brackets, so it's supposed to show the assimilated allophones, not the original, theoretical phonemes, so I don't quite understand your point about [ç] being already listed there, since [x] is not a phoneme but another allophone. [ç] denotes the voiceless palatal fricative, while [x], the voiceless velar fricative, so [ç] is pronounced further to the front, whereas [x], further to the back. I think it's basically those two sounds that occur in German ich and ach. I checked the Hangtan that is linked on the pronunciation page and it says (p. 34)
- Egyes (többnyire idősebb) beszélők palatális réshangot, [ç]-t ejtenek palatális magánhangzók környezetében, pl. te[ç]nika, pe[ç:]
Do you agree with the author that it's only a feature of the speech of certain, chiefly elderly people? For me, it would be a bit difficult to pronounce technika with [x] (the same sound as in sah). If you do agree with her, then [ˈtɛçnikɒ] could be a secondary pronunciation, [ˈtɛxnikɒ] being the primary one. Adam78 (talk) 20:29, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
- @Adam78 I agree with you completely, [ˈtɛçnikɒ] is the correct one. My confusion is about the allophone of /j/. If we say the IPA for rakj is correctly [ˈrɒkç], how should we present this in the Appendix:Hungarian pronunciation help pages? Panda10 (talk) 20:36, 8 July 2021 (UTC)
@Panda10 I think one particular allophone may belong to more than one phoneme. [ç] seems to be an allophone of /j/ and at the same time an allophone of /h/ too, a bit like [ɲ] belonging to the phoneme /ɲ/ as well as to the phoneme /n/ in words like rongy. Adam78 (talk) 21:23, 8 July 2021 (UTC)