Module talk:zh/data/dial-syn/華人

中國人

@The dog2 I think that definition might be your perspective as a Singaporean. In Mainland China and in North America (and maybe in Hong Kong, though controversial), I think 中國人 often could be used of anyone of Chinese descent. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:37, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I guess I have heard the term being used this way by some people with ultra-nationalistic views, but generally, 華人 is the all-encompassing term for all ethnic Chinese regardless of whether or not they were born and/or raised in China, while 中國人 refers specifically to Chinese citizens. It's true that there are many ultra-nationalists in China (and even a few overseas Chinese who identify with that group) who believe that all ethnic Chinese regardless of where they were born and raised have a moral imperative to be unquestioningly loyal to the CCP in the name of ethnic solidarity, and my experience is that it is usually these types of people who will refer to overseas Chinese as 中國人. Of course, the term 中國人 is not without controversy, because mainland Chinese people will consider people from Hong Kong and Taiwan to be 中國人, but locals in those areas consider themselves to be 華人 but not 中國人.

Speaking of which, in a hypothetical scenario that a black guy was born and raised in China to African parents, and has Chinese citizenship, I believe that such a person would be considered 中國人 but not 華人. The dog2 (talk) 21:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: For some people, especially in the West, if they came over earlier (perhaps before the handover of Hong Kong), I don't think it has that kind of an intentionally ultra-nationalistic tone. Like in English, you can't really distinguish Chinese (citizen) from Chinese (ethnic) without additional modifiers. I feel like there are two senses of 中國人, (1) citizen of China and (2) ethnic Chinese. Most people would have sense (1), while others would also have sense (2). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:25, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Do you have any usage examples? If someone was born in China, but immigrated to the U.S. and subsequently took up U.S. citizenship, then yes, in that context, many people would still refer to that person as 中國人 even though he would technically have lost his Chinese citizenship (since China does not recognise dual nationality). But I've never heard it being used to refer to someone of Chinese ethnicity who was born and raised overseas. And I can assure you that many Hongkongers and Taiwanese will be very offended if you refer to them as 中國人, but on the other hand, except for maybe some fringe ultra-radical pro-independence folks, they will be OK if you refer to them as 華人. The dog2 (talk) 23:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: This article seems to talk about similar issues. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:44, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

An example from Canada (click on 1872): 次年，第一屆省立法會通過一項法案，剝奪土著印第安人和中國人的選舉權。 — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:49, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I see where you're coming from. I guess even in Singapore, most of the ethnic Chinese would have considered themselves 中國人 in colonial times, before Singapore became independent, and the concept of a Singaporean nation and hence, Singapore citizenship, did not exist. In fact, many ethnic Chinese in Southeast Asia donated huge sums of money to fund the resistance against Japanese rule in China, and when then Japanese eventually occupied Southeast Asia, the ethnic Chinese were singled out for the harshest treatment as retribution for that. And up to around 1948, there were numerous ethnic Chinese Singaporeans who competed for the China at the Olympics. So perhaps we can indicate that using 中國人 to refer to all ethnic Chinese regardless of country of birth or citizenship may be somewhat dated. The dog2 (talk) 00:31, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I agree that 中國人 can be used of anyone of Chinese descent. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: Actually it's complicated. While some overseas Chinese may continue identifying as 中國人, some mainland Chinese insist 中國人 means only PRC citizens plus the people of Taiwan, and overseas Chinese should only be called 華人. Therefore, at present, only some Chinese use 中國人 as anyone of Chinese descent. RcAlex36 (talk) 08:27, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @RcAlex36: Most Hongkongers are ethnically Chinese, but my understanding is that Hongkongers find it offensive if you called them 中國人 because you guys want to be independent, and want to distance yourselves from China. On the other hand, 唐人 or 華人 is less offensive because it doesn't imply nationality. Am I wrong about that? The dog2 (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: This wasn't always the case. When I was younger (I was born after 1997), I couldn't distinguish the two terms myself and I thought Singapore and Malaysia had a lot of 中國人. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Not everyone in Hong Kong wants to be "independent" per se. This is a touchy subject, so I won't go into it. It's definitely not as black and white as you've put it. I think the view you put is a more extreme version that not all Hongkongers would necessarily subscribe to. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:19, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: I'm not here to have political debate or advocate any political positions. I only brought these up because it's important that we define terms accurately, and unfortunately, terms like this can have political connotations. But anyway, in Taiwan, most DPP (pro-independence) supporters make a very clear distinction between 華人 and 中國人. They will acknowledge that they are 華人, but find it very offensive if you call them 中國人. Of course, the Aboriginal people of Taiwan aren't ethnically Chinese and would thus not be considered 華人, put perhaps paradoxically, they are traditionally KMT strongholds. The dog2 (talk) 06:30, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: It's not as clear-cut. 華人 could technically include the indigenous people of Taiwan from a PRC perspective. The Zhuang and Manchus certainly would be under the idea of "Zhonghua minzu". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:33, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Traditionally, I never really thought about that because most overseas Chinese from Singapore are Han Chinese. So I guess we do have a tendency to equate 華人 with Han Chinese. The dog2 (talk) 06:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yes, and I think this conflation is very common outside of Mainland China. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

漢族/人

@Atitarev I don't know if these should be here. 華人 technically could refer to all ethnicities in China, including the Han, but also including other ethnicities, like the Zhuang or the Manchus (although of course, not without controversy). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:35, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: With Dungans, 華人／华人 (Huárén) is probably unknown. The Dungan-Russian dictionary opposes 漢族人／汉族人 (hànzúrén) and 漢人／汉人 (Hànrén) (as ethnic Han Chinese) to 中國人／中国人 (Zhōngguórén) (person from China). So there is a controversy but it is what it is. In my opinion, 漢人／汉人 (Hànrén) should also be considered as a common Mandarin synonym to 華人／华人 (Huárén). --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:44, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: While 華人 usually refers to 漢人 (because Han are the majority), I don't know if they should be conflated in this module. @The dog2, RcAlex36, Mar vin kaiser, Tooironic, 沈澄心, Suzukaze-c, what are your thoughts on this? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:49, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: No, it should not be included. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:50, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: @RcAlex36, not included in what exactly? Module:zh/data/dial-syn/華人 has the sense "ethnic Chinese". 漢人 is even more precise, isn't it? Dungans may not be familiar with 華人 but 漢人 is used to refer to Han people, regardless of where there are. Am I missing something? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Ethnic Han is not ethnic Chinese, which would include Zhuang and Manchu as well, as I said above. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:57, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: 河南人 is even more precise. If you come to think about it, Dungan people are just 華人 in another way. RcAlex36 (talk) 05:58, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) English Han or Russian хань (xanʹ) refers to the ethnicity only. It excludes Zhuang and Manchu, etc. Dungan may be influenced, misunderstood or uses an older sense. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:59, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Justinrleung, RcAlex36: The wording "ethnic Chinese" is misleading. It needs clarification. In English, it means the same as "Han" people, this excluding all minorities. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:07, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: 華人 ≠ English Han. "Ethnic Chinese" is kind of a misnomer because it actually means any one of Chinese descent, which could include Han, Zhuang, Manchu, etc. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:02, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

After EC. If that's the case, then it needs further clarification, as it IS a misnomer. I don't even know what "ethnic Chinese" means! In English, e.g. Mongolians born in China are not called "ethnic Chinese". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:07, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Justinrleung: It's possible that in the minds of Dungan there's a us (Dungan) vs them (Han) mentality, which means there isn't a good equivalent of 華人 in the Dungan language. When they migrated out of China into Central Asia in the 19th century, was there even the concept of 華人 as we now know? RcAlex36 (talk) 06:09, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36, Justinrleung: I have misunderstood the meaning of "ethnic Chinese", which normally refers to the people of Han ancestry, which excludes minorities. I still think that's what 漢／汉 (hàn) actually means, no - sense #6? I have removed Dungan terms. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev, RcAlex36: I don't think the Dungan necessarily have a word for this concept, which is fairly recent construct. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:12, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Justinrleung, RcAlex36, Atitarev: My understanding is that the Dungans are descended from Chinese Muslims. And even in modern China, the Chinese Muslims are not considered to be 漢人. In fact, they consider themselves to be a separate ethnic group known as 回族. And my understanding is that the Dungans refer to their language as 回族語言. The dog2 (talk) 06:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Hui didn't use to be officially considered a separate ethnic group from Han until the PRC. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:19, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

English translation

@Justinrleung I'm not sure if ethnic Chinese is a good English translation. English Wikipedia thinks ethnic Chinese is equivalent to Han Chinese, which may cause confusion here. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:03, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@RcAlex36: Would you say "person of Chinese descent" is good enough? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:06, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Looks fine to me, although yeah, most overseas Chinese are indeed Han Chinese. RcAlex36 (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, RcAlex36: Yes, most overseas Chinese would be descended from Han Chinese from the coastal provinces, in particular Guangdong, Fujian and Hainan. But that said, who is or is not Han Chinese is somewhat ambiguous. The Han Chinese of Guangdong and Fujian are believed to be former ethnic minorities that gradually got assimilated into Chinese culture starting from the Han Dynasty. The dog2 (talk) 06:34, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yeah, I think it's definitely more defined by a cultural identity, like speaking some kind of Chinese language, celebrating certain festivals, etc. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Even then, there is a lot of internal diversity within what we call "Chinese culture". In Singapore, the Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese and other Chinese dialect groups are known to have cultural differences from each other. And most ethnic Chinese in Singapore are descended from people from Fujian, Guangdong and Hainan, so we don't have a tradition of eating jiaozi for Chinese New Year, which is a must if you're from northern China. The dog2 (talk) 06:52, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@The dog2: Yeah, it's hard to pin down the core characteristics. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:54, 3 December 2020 (UTC)