Reconstruction talk:Proto-Slavic/juditi

and *juriti and Turkic

While this is usually put to Proto-Indo-European *Hyewdʰ-, we read at Boryś, Wiesław (2005) “Proto-Slavic/juditi”, in Słownik etymologiczny języka polskiego (in Polish), Kraków: Wydawnictwo Literackie, →ISBN, page 216 that the Polish judzić is attested from the XIVth century, and he assumes because of origin in Polish dialects of the East a borrowing from Ukrainian ю́дити (júdyty, “to incite, to provoke”) (which I see in use) or Belarusian ю́дзиць (júdzicʹ), after many others have assumed similar – also a borrowing from Lithuanian judė́ti –, as referenced Trubachyov, Oleg, editor (1981), “*juditi”, in Этимологический словарь славянских языков [Etymological dictionary of Slavic languages] (in Russian), numbers 8 (*xa – *jьvьlga), Moscow: Nauka, page 192. Allegedly also present in Bulgarian ю́дя (júdja), изю́дя (izjúdja), изю́двам (izjúdvam), somewhat obscure (@Bezimenen), and that is also put as from the XIVth century. Of course the Lithuanian words can only be attested even later, as the language is only written from the XVIth century. Could this continue a Turkic or Mongolic term instead? The meaning is a part of *juriti (Trubachyov, Oleg, editor (1981), “*juriti (sę)”, in Этимологический словарь славянских языков [Etymological dictionary of Slavic languages] (in Russian), numbers 8 (*xa – *jьvьlga), Moscow: Nauka, page 198) which is well-known in Serbo-Croatian júriti (“to chase”). The Proto-Slavic *juda (“a kind of evil mythical being”) is dubious and may well be primarily the name Judas, as this means a traitor translingually and the very same form in the mentioned languages (Bulgarian and Ukrainian) does so; absurdly enough ESSJa puts Serbo-Croatian ју̏да (“Cercis siliquastrum, i.e. Judas tree”) into the equation. یورش (yörüş, yürüş, “attack!”) was regularly the first and most common word the inhabitants of the Near East heard from Turks and Mongols; similar the inhabitants of Eastern Europe must have heard from the Turks and Mongols. Fay Freak (talk) 14:26, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: Unfortunately, I cannot find when the Bulgarian lemmas have entered the language or if they were borrowed. As far as I know, though, the mythological creature юда (juda) is not derived from the Biblical personage Judas. Balkan Slavic juda-s are depicted as feminine evil spirits, similar to succubi or sirens. References for such creatures exist as early as Procopius, although he does not mention explicitly how early Slavs call them. In principle, it is true that the name Юда has become synonymous with a traitor, but I cannot see why it would have evolved into a feminine demonic creature, more similar to Jewish Lilith rather than Judas. Sorry if I'm not much of a help. Безименен (talk) 16:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

@Bezimenen: No worries, I was just dumping material and assessments in case someone wants to create the entries, or considers the opposite. Good to know that mythology stuff; especially since both the female-demon sense and the verb are found especially in Ukrainian and Bulgarian – otherwise one might well consider the demon-term and the provoke-verb separate. I thought maybe Bulgarian and Ukrainian folklore in the backwaters has treated Biblical content loosely – like even the Qurʾān confuses biblical persons. Technically contact between Bulgarian and Ukrainian may also transmit such content; sometimes it is Romanian, as leurdă, and in this case Romanian has this term, in Micul dicționar academic 2010 sense 5, there being a non-female demon in bodies of water, put together with Judas and traitor senses and derived from Old Church Slavonic “июда”. Fay Freak (talk) 21:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)