Talk:得了
discussion thread moved from user's talk page[edit]
- The following discussion was moved from User talk:Suzukaze-c.
Is the pinyin really "déliǎo," or is it "deliǎo?" Under the particle section of 得, "de" is listed. Is it just different when combined with "liǎo?" WikiWinters ☯ 韦安智 22:54, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
- My Mandarin is poor especially in regard to tones. Please ask someone else, I cannot answer this :( —suzukaze (t・c) 23:08, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
- 得 is always pronounced dé. The only exceptions: 1) when it is used to complement a verb e.g. 跑得快 (to run fast), where it is pronounced as de 2) when it is used to mean "must" e.g. 我得走 (I must leave), where it is pronounced děi. It is true though that in conversation déliǎo sometimes sounds like deliǎo, but all the dictionaries I have consulted list it as déliǎo. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Tooironic Hmm, interesting. I wonder why this is, because doesn't 得 as a particle have the same grammatical function as in 得了? WikiWinters ☯ 韦安智 03:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- Not sure I follow you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:50, 13 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Tooironic Hmm, interesting. I wonder why this is, because doesn't 得 as a particle have the same grammatical function as in 得了? WikiWinters ☯ 韦安智 03:36, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- 得 is always pronounced dé. The only exceptions: 1) when it is used to complement a verb e.g. 跑得快 (to run fast), where it is pronounced as de 2) when it is used to mean "must" e.g. 我得走 (I must leave), where it is pronounced děi. It is true though that in conversation déliǎo sometimes sounds like deliǎo, but all the dictionaries I have consulted list it as déliǎo. ---> Tooironic (talk) 14:35, 2 October 2015 (UTC)
...sneaking in all of a sudden) Hey guys, @WikiWinters, Tooironic and Suzukaze-c, good questions you're raising! Regarding dictionary entries, I think 得了 is really messed up (horrible grouping); but before I go do the fixing, let me elaborate a bit here:
- Pronouncing "deliǎo" or "déliǎo" in fact makes a difference!
- In "verb+得了" structure (as 车"进得了"公园), 得 should be weak (de0), and it means "capable of (that verb)".
- In interjection such as "这还得了" or "不得了", 得 is obviously strongly pronounced (de2), and it means "gees christ, can't handle"---hard to translate.
- Although both pronounced "déle", the two meaning=items are completely different.
- The "verb+得了(déle)" structure is actually fake shouldn't be included in dictionary! It's just "取得+了", where 取得 is one word (although constructed) and not supposed to be split. 取得、获得、夺得、赢得——these are different manners of 得到.
Who wrote this item?!! - The interjection "得了(déle)", a Northern colloq., should actually be split:
- 得了！(swift), actually more common as 得！, means "OK that's it" "Yeah" "Well", for a situation such as someone doesn't show up for a hangout, some restaurant doesn't open --- a sudden situation change and quick decision-making.
- 得了吧！(loud) means "That's enough!", usually interrupting someone's proposal (plan) or bragging.
- these two items are closely related though.
- The "verb+得了(déle)" structure is actually fake shouldn't be included in dictionary! It's just "取得+了", where 取得 is one word (although constructed) and not supposed to be split. 取得、获得、夺得、赢得——these are different manners of 得到.
Anyways, hope I made this clear. :) -- SzMithrandir (talk) 00:50, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
- Go ahead and make the changes then. Cheers. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:28, 17 October 2015 (UTC)
Came back) Hey guys, @WikiWinters, Tooironic, Suzukaze-c: I've updated the entry. Please check the "part-of-speech" (i.e. adj, interj, or adv? postposition?) for each etymology, cuz I'm a bit unsure. Also by the way, 不得了 seems meesed up too; I'm a bit curious of the source of these wrong infos. Do they come from a same place? -- SzMithrandir (talk) 23:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)
- Good work. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:24, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- @WikiWinters, Tooironic, Suzukaze-c, SzMithrandir Thanks for the update, SzMithrandir. I've checked the parts of speech and changed them accordingly. The definition for déliǎo still seems a bit wonky, but I can't find a better way to translate it out of context, so I left it as is. Also, I've checked 教育部重編國語辭典修訂本 and 中華語文知識庫, and there seems to be a couple of missing senses for déle:
- 完畢、完成。儒林外史˙第十四回：「他又見了幾個衝心的錢，這事纔得了。」
- 表示懷疑的語氣。如：「得了，你會幫忙才怪！」
- 助詞。用於陳述句，表示肯定語氣。例：你放心得了，這裡有我呢！
- Could you please check them and add them? — Justinrleung (t...)⁄c=› 01:34, 26 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Justinrleung I'll say the 1st (这事才得了) meaning you listed above is indeed different (not included in my proposal "draft"); but the 2nd and 3rd seems to belong to the "OK / enough" item. I'm suspecting the "interj" in our Etym3 is actually an "adverb". Anyways, quite subtle; I'll come back to this tmrw (half day later). This entry is sooo interesting! :D -- SzMithrandir (talk) 05:14, 30 October 2015 (UTC)