Talk:ពន្លឺចរាចរណ៍

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to navigation Jump to search

(Notifying Stephen G. Brown, Wyang, Octahedron80): : Hi all. @Frank. Why is it not showing pŭənlɨɨ in the compound entry, as in ពន្លឺ (pŭənlɨɨ)? Currently pɔnlɨɨ cɑɑraacɑɑ. I just want to understand first before I force a different respelling. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:05, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

I've seen a lot of irregularity in pronunciations of words that begin with this spelling. The respellings, I believe, are one of the following: ពន់ (pŭən), ពៈន (pĕəʾn), ពន (pɔɔn). —Stephen (Talk) 12:48, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev Yes, the respelling here should have ពន-លឺ in the first component. It's a complex but interesting case: the module has the mechanism of auto-syllabifying the respelling (or the title if respelling absent), then after that the module will apply automatic syllable redistribution. Syllabification breaks the respelling ពន្លឺ into ព-ន្លឺ, and syllable redistribution means that syllabified spelling is reorganised into ពន-លឺ, a more accurate syllable structure. In some cases, however, syllable redistribution is undesirable, for example សាសនា (saasnaa) where we would like the respelling to remain as សា-ស្នា, not សាស-នា (which has a different IPA output). This is why the hyphen is sometimes important in the respelling: when there is a hyphen in the respelling, the module recognises that the respelling is already syllabified, and there is no need to redistribute the syllables; while an unhyphenated respelling is interpreted as having the permission to be syllable-redistributed.
Here the ច-រ៉ា-ច part is syllabified in the respelling, but not the ពន្លឺ part, thus the module will syllabify the first part, but will not do the syllable redistribution in order to avoid doing it wrongly. The syllabified ព-ន្លឺ respelling has a different outcome from ពន-លឺ; the first syllable will automatically take a bantak, which after an o-series initial (ព), before a non-labial final (ន), gives either /ɔ/, if the syllable has no coda and is non-final in the word, or /ŭə/ elsewhere. Result is that ព-ន្លឺ gives /pɔ.nlɨː/, whereas ពន-លឺ gives the correct /pŭən.lɨː/. Hope this makes sense! Wyang (talk) 13:25, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Stephen G. Brown, Wyang: Thank you both! BTW, I didn't get the ping. I will use hyphens more frequently. BTW, a hyphen in the Thai module makes Orthographic/Phonemic different but not in the Khmer module. Perhaps the Thai module should ignore hyphens when determining if orthographic and phonemic parts are different as well? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:50, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev No worries. There isn't really a need to use hyphens more frequently - unhyphenated respellings work in numerous cases and are somewhat preferred in Chuon Nath (which uses unhyphenated respellings unless when ambiguous). Whenever hyphens are used, please make sure all syllables are syllabified. :) Thai differs slightly in that some dictionaries consistently give hyphenated respellings, so there may be value in showing those. Plus Thai is tonal, so seeing how every syllable respelling corresponds to their tones is also beneficial I think. Wyang (talk) 06:33, 16 April 2018 (UTC)