Talk:氫

Layout of glyph origin and etymology

@Geographyinitiative I didn't see any improvement of the current layout from the previous one. Now there're two glyphic explanations. Why? Dokurrat (talk) 13:05, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for looking at my edit. From my perspective, there are some characters that are simultaneously a Phono-semantic and Ideogramic character. In the instances where this is the case, I believe that we should state clearly that there is both an explanation of the character from a phono-semantic perspective and from an ideogramic perspective. I imagine that the creators of this character (from the 1900's?) probably had both methods of character creation in mind when they created this character.

從“气”，“巠”聲，表示化學元素（hydrogen,H）。（hydrogen,H）原子序１。分子為無色、無臭、無味的雙原子氣體，是物質中最輕者 http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-mf/search.php?word=氫

I think there was a better way to format this type of character where there are glyph origin explanations from two perspectives, but I don't remember how it was done, so I wrote it like this. Let me know what you think! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 13:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative I'm afraid I failed to see a strong ideogramic-ness of the glyph of 氫. The idea that it phonetic glyph "巠" is abbreviated from "輕" is not applaudable to me; why is it abbreviated from "輕"? Based on the same logic it can be abbrevated from any character whose phonetic glyph is "巠". (And yes, I see this part is not your edit.) Dokurrat (talk) 13:59, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: You're taking things to the extreme. 氫氣 used to be written as 輕氣, but to specialize the character, people created 氫, which is obviously based on 輕. Similar patterns are seen with 氧 (< 養) and 氮 (< 淡). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:07, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: If 氫氣's earlier glyph is 輕氣, we can describe this glyphic history. But it still doesn't explain how is "巠" is abbreviated from "輕". Dokurrat (talk) 14:13, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: For one, there was 𣱮. It's more obvious if we look 氫, 氧 and 氮 as a group. It's very clear that 氮 doesn't come from 炎, because 炎 is obviously not the phonetic component since it was coined recently. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:18, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: I don't want to be a stubborn one. It's very obvious that 氫 is from 輕, which I agree. I just don't agree the the way we describe its phonetic part. I can say the phonetic part is "from", "evolved" or "inherit" from earlier 輕. But... "abbreviated"... I just don't see it. Dokurrat (talk) 14:20, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Do we really have to stick to the word "abbreviated"? If your answer is yes then I will give up. Dokurrat (talk) 14:21, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: Not necessarily. What problem do you have with "abbreviated"? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:26, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: As the glyph 車 is gone. I think my bigger problem is that I don't see this a ideogramic character. Dokurrat (talk) 14:34, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: It's an ideogrammic compound because it has two components and both components contribute to its meaning. Do you think that 巠 cannot carry any meaning? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:45, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: (1) What does "abbreviated"/"abbreviation" mean? Despite a vital part is gone, it can still called "abbreviation". Like "photo" (abbreviated from "photograph"); I'm not an etymological Nazi, I'm not silly enough to say "photo" should only mean light and doesn't mean photograph because -graph is gone. I'm not silly enough to say the profanity "你大爺／你大爷" is a simple title and not abbreviated from *×你大爺. But as for the case 氫／氢 (qīng), not only the glyph 車 is not there, but also I didn't see anything to give a hint of it was there. We know "photo" means what it meant because its meaning is attestable, its meaning is living and used in all kinds of media and in the minds of the mass. We know "你大爺／你大爷" is a profanity because of the same reason. But really, the glyph 車 is not there. And except for historical documents, where's the hint of its being or former being? (2) Therefore, what 氫-related meaning could 巠 carry? Dokurrat (talk) 15:11, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Dokurrat: [1] and [2] both support 巠 being an abbreviated form of 輕, and that it is an ideogrammic compound. And I did point out that there used to be a form 𣱮, so the 車 was there. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 15:22, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Okay, I give up. Dokurrat (talk) 15:23, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Fascinating discussion! The link to 汉字源流字典 shows that there are some who think that 氫 is simultaneously a phono-semantic compound and an ideogram (形声兼会意字). 《汉字源流字典》 第871页 Based on the etymology we have now and the opinion of the 汉字源流字典, it seems convincing that the 巠 component in 氫 is viewed by some as the 'abbreviated phonetic 輕'. BUT it is also convincing that the 巠 component in 氫 is the 'abbreviated semantic 輕'. I can't figure out how to use the Template:Han_compound to create the following expression:

Phono-semantic compound (形聲) and ideogrammic compound (會意): semantic 气 (“gas”) + abbreviated phonetic/ abbreviated semantic 輕 (“light; of low density”).

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 09:46, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

Another alternative:

Phono-semantic compound (形聲) and ideogrammic compound (會意): semantic 气 (“gas”) + abbreviated phonetic 輕 (OC *keːŋ)/ abbreviated semantic 輕 (“light; of low density”).

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 10:18, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

In this edit, I have removed the OC, but left in the notion that 輕 is serving as both an abbreviated phonetic and an abbreviated semantic. I think some sound needs to go after 'abbreviated phonetic 輕', but I don't know what exactly.

Phono-semantic compound (形聲) and ideogrammic compound (會意): semantic 气 (“gas”) + abbreviated phonetic 輕/ abbreviated semantic 輕 (“light; of low density”).

--Geographyinitiative (talk) 06:04, 21 February 2018 (UTC)