Talk:Hawara

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RFV discussion: May–June 2017[edit]

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Looks real, but I can't find any cites. w:bar:Hawara suggests it's not just Austrian, incidentally. @-sche? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:57, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned in the bar.WP article, Wolfgang Teuschl translated the New Testament into Viennese in 1971 and called it "Da Jesus und seine Hawara", which I find somewhat amusing (picture a priest in an old chapel in London opening his mouth and in a Cockney or MLE accent telling you about "da Jesus an his mates"), but also somewhat clever given the ultimately Hebrew derivation of the word. Anyway, that's one cite. It's bar, not de though. - -sche (discuss) 21:28, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see you changed the entry to Bavarian. In that case, I guess it's cited? But should there be a German entry as well? Our handling of the German topolects always confuses me. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:42, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't thought it was attested in this spelling in German, but maybe it is, rarely. Btw, we are missing German and English sections for the place Hawara and for another unrelated term "Hawara" that refers to a person (see google books:"Hawaras"). - -sche (discuss) 23:00, 13 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And, indeed, three of the citations I found are of a compound word (and at least two seem to be connected with a specific person). However, there are enough German citations of "mein Hawara", "dein Hawara", and "deine Hawara" available that this is attested as a rare form. - -sche (discuss) 02:37, 16 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]


RFC discussion: July 2021[edit]

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Etymology reads

From Viennese German Hawara

with a link to Hawara#German.

  1. Viennese German is a Bavarian (bar) dialect, so the correct link is Hawara#Bavarian.
  2. If Viennese German would be a German (de) variety and it would be Hawara#German, the link would be circular.

--Macopre (talk) 19:09, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is not with the entry, which is perfectly fine, but whether the etymology-only code for Viennese German should properly be considered a dialect of Bavarian. @-sche? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:29, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There is no problem. If Viennese German is German (de) then it tells you where the word started. If it is Bavarian (bar) it also does. Viennese German can be both Bavarian (bar) and German (de). Like all essentialists Wikipedians are just too shook to admit that this is a homonym and two tables are also not to shown at its entry for aesthetical reasons, or perhaps it is just because they are not a dictionary and Viennese German (de) needs less treating. This happens everywhere. Egyptian Arabic is Fusha as used in Egypt and it is also an own language, the latter of course needs to be much more expanded on than the former, and has much more sources to be referenced. And sometimes such distinction is left open or intentionally ambiguous. Which code is used in such entries is an artificial problem readers do not see. Anyway I don’t see why the alternative form has an etymology section. Fay Freak (talk) 19:52, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The entry linked to Bavarian until diff, and could be fixed by making it link to Bavarian again. There is a Viennese German which is a dialect of Bavarian, and it is what is meant here, of course, but whether all VG. (as that code is currently used) is Bavarian is harder to say, as there have doubtless been some Vienna-specific standard German terms (it being the capital of a German-speaking state, and source of some loans into Hungarian in particular). The fact that many reference works don't clearly distinguish "Austrian German" and "Viennese German" vs "Austrian Bavarian" and "Viennese Bavarian" makes it hard to be certain which one something like Hungarian perfid should be categorized as deriving from. Most, like Hungarian pukedli, seem to be the Bavarian lect, though. Probably we should reclassify VG. (as a variety of bar) and then switch the few entries that are "Viennese de" to just say ←that. - -sche (discuss) 20:02, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]