Talk:cross one's fingers

literal meaning?

We should really list it! ---> Tooironic 08:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

RFV discussion: July 2015–January 2016

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cross one's fingers

Rfv-sense: To tell a white lie. I think I was the one who added this originally, but now I realise it's not quite right. In some cultures, crossing one's fingers can represent the telling of a white lie, but I'm not sure if that's something that can be attested. ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:21, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

In the US it is a childish accompaniment of telling a lie that is supposed to remove the moral consequences or a theatrical way of indicating that a real person or a theatrical character is telling a lie. Not too many lemmings have any definition for cross one's fingers. Only AHD has "tell a white lie". I don't think it means "tell a white lie", but it should be possible to attest to meanings something like what I suggested. That the lies are only "white lies" doesn't seem right, though it may often be so. DCDuring TALK 12:02, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

The following easily-found citations illustrate my view:

• DCDuring TALK 12:09, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

The theatrical use, as a stage direction, is a little harder to find:

My understanding is that you do it while telling a lie if you hope not to be found out, or if you are not sure that your statement is true (but you hope it is. SemperBlotto (talk) 08:51, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Do the current definitions that are unchallenged capture your understanding? Can they be better worded? DCDuring TALK 15:53, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

While I appreciate the work you've put in here, I'm still not convinced this can be attested. Crossing your fingers behind your back may represent the telling of a white lie, but I'm not sure that the phrase cross one's fingers has any meaning beyond the first two senses. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:05, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I explicitly reject as too specialized the "tell a white lie" definition. Clearly this is not identical to, though it is probably derived from, the "hope for good luck" sense. The association with deceit is also clear, witness the three citations that explicitly mention lying and place the crossing of fingers "behind one's back". I can find still more cites on any aspect of this that remains in question. This is a common expression of a common bit of folk culture in US, UK, probably Canada, Oz, and NZ. It may exist in other places with Christian heritage, as crossed fingers probably represent a kind of prayer, certainly in the "hope" sense. DCDuring TALK 03:47, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we should either let sense 1 handle this and explain the various purposes of crossing one's fingers with a usage note, or explain it in the definition, as "To put the middle finger across the index finger, especially when wishing for luck or when telling a lie". - -sche (discuss) 02:42, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with -sche and Tooironic. It is important that we distinguish the meaning of the phrase cross one's fingers from the meaning of the action of crossing one's fingers. As far as I can tell, the current sense 1 is the meaning of the phrase, sense 2 is one meaning of the action, and senses 3 and 4 are another meaning (or else two closely related meanings) of the action. I agree with -sche's suggestion of cutting down the entry to one definition (the meaning of the phrase), with either a usage note or an extra phrase to explain the meaning of the action. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 04:56, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

I thought this was exactly the kind of thing that made an expression idiomatic. I thought it was the reason why we have entries for sit still (for), middle finger, etc. All such expressions are conventionalized ways of referring to the gestures involved. Many other gestures (like circling one's extended index finger around the side of one's head to indicate silently that a person is crazy) do not have such conventionalized expressions to refer to the gesture.

This expression conveys cultural information that is the meaning of the gesture, which differs according to who can see the gesture in the context. There are some instances in which lying is explicitly mentioned in the vicinity of the expression and others in which the expression simply accompanies what is transparently a lie. There are other instances in which the expression explicitly refers to the gesture being behind the liar-gesturer's back and out of sight of the hearer. Judging by the kind of first-person fiction is which this appears, it also seems that the expression refers to an act that conveys a kind of innocence, which is what AHD and the Wiktionary who added the "white lie" sense picked up on. I am not aware of any other expression that is used in this way nor of any other expression that refers to the gesture with the two classes of meanings. DCDuring TALK 11:08, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

That sounds to me like a good argument for a definition like the one -sche suggested. I think that their suggested definition is comparable to sense 2 of middle finger ("An obscene gesture directed towards another as an insult."). On the other hand, defining cross one's fingers as "tell a lie" is like defining middle finger as "fuck you".

To put it another way, the sentence "John crossed his fingers" does not mean the same thing as the sentence "John told a lie." But it might mean the same thing as "John put his middle finger across his index finger, indicating by convention that he was lying." —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 11:40, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

You must also object to sense two then. DCDuring TALK 12:27, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes. I think that all four senses should be combined into one, unless citations can be found indicating that the phrase cross one's fingers can actually mean "tell a lie" or "hope for something"—that is, that someone can be said to be crossing their fingers even if they are not doing anything with their hands. I think that all of the citations currently in the entry support a definition like the one -sche suggested. —Mr. Granger (talk • contribs) 00:19, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I've made the changes I and Mr Granger discussed above. - -sche (discuss) 06:57, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

• In Czech, "drž mi palce" (as if, hold your thumbs for me) is used as a synonym for "wish me luck" or "wish me luck, I'll need it"; it does not involve a request to literally hold one's thumbs. In google books:"I'll cross my fingers for you", it is not obvious whether the occurrences mean it literally, right? A question for native speakers: as far as you anecdotally know, is "I'll cross my fingers for you" actually used in English? Is it common or rare? Is it literal?
• Now that we only have "To put the middle finger across the index finger [...]" as a definition, Czech "drž mi palce" cannot be used as a translation, since it is not used literally. German Daumen drücken seems to be a similar case; there seem to be multiple similar cases in the "wish for good luck" translation table, which was not deleted yet. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:33, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

How about using subsenses like this this? And retaining the translations tables, although I think the translations could be retained even if we had only one table (after all, "Indian style" has translations that actually mean "Turkish style", "a leopard cannot change its spots" has translations that are to do with wolves, etc; glosses and the foreign-language entries themselves can explain the literal translations). - -sche (discuss) 22:35, 25 January 2016 (UTC)