Talk:mene mene tekel upharsin
Latest comment: 7 years ago by Andrew Sheedy in topic US pronunciation
US pronunciation[edit]
"Wherever you got that pron from, it looks like they're supposed to be "long e" in US too"
- I don’t pronounce them long and I’ve never heard them pronounced long here. It sounds funny that way, like meanie meanie. —Stephen (Talk) 04:29, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Stephen G. Brown: So you're saying you pronounce them like the word mini, even though they are spelled with an e? --WikiTiki89 14:36, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, pronounced as spelled. e = ɪ or ɛ, i = ɪ or i. —Stephen (Talk) 16:19, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Stephen G. Brown: What do you mean "pronounced as spelled"? Can you give me an example of another English word where a stressed "e" is pronounced /ɪ/? The only example I know of is the word English itself. In most cases, "e" is pronounced either /ɛ/ or /i/ (as in helix or stele). Also, do you speak with the pin-pen merger, because that could be causing some of this confusion? --WikiTiki89 17:21, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- A large population pronounces pen as pɪn. As far as I know, e is usually not pronounced /i/ except in certain cases, such as cede, mede, Pete, and the English words me, be, he, she, re, we; and usually these cases only apply to English words, not foreign words. Who would think to pronounce Pele as /pili/, or Pepe as /pipi/, or veni as /wini/? Anyway, I have never heard an American pronounce mene as /mini/, and if I had, it would have made me laugh because it sounds like meanie. That pronunciation really sounds funny (humorous) to me. /mɪnɪ/ is the only way I have ever said it. —Stephen (Talk) 19:07, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- It sounds to me that you have the pin-pen merger, meaning that the vowel underlying vowel is still /ɛ/, even if you realize it as [ɪ] before a nasal. --WikiTiki89 19:11, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- When I,an American, first read mene mene tekel upharsin about 10 years ago, I definitely guessed /mɛnɛ/. Just saying. —JohnC5 19:14, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- If I were to be prescriptive, I would prescribe the pronunciation /məˈneɪ məˈneɪ təˈkɛl uːˌfɑɹˈsiːn/, and I'm willing to be at least someone out there pronounces it that way. --WikiTiki89 19:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- My own pronunciation of it is, in fact, /məˈneɪ məˈneɪ təˈkɛl upˌhɑɹˈsɪn/. Apparently I've been saying the last word wrong, but I seem to have the first three spot on, if one is to be prescriptive... Andrew Sheedy (talk) 05:05, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
- If I were to be prescriptive, I would prescribe the pronunciation /məˈneɪ məˈneɪ təˈkɛl uːˌfɑɹˈsiːn/, and I'm willing to be at least someone out there pronounces it that way. --WikiTiki89 19:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- There are a lot of us who have the pin-pen merger. Those who don’t would say /pɛn/ instead, but /pɛn/ is almost indistinguishable to those of us who say /pɪn/. Not only do we say /pɪn/, but we hear /pɛn/ as /pɪn/. —Stephen (Talk) 19:17, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I know what the pin-pen merger is, and yes, I know that it is common (in certain regions). What's your point? --WikiTiki89 19:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- No point except to reply to your question, "Also, do you speak with the pin-pen merger, because that could be causing some of this confusion?", and your comment "It sounds to me that you have the pin-pen merger, meaning that the vowel underlying vowel is still /ɛ/, even if you realize it as [ɪ] before a nasal." —Stephen (Talk) 12:56, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- Ok. So just to be clear, you don't object to my interpretation? --WikiTiki89 14:55, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- No point except to reply to your question, "Also, do you speak with the pin-pen merger, because that could be causing some of this confusion?", and your comment "It sounds to me that you have the pin-pen merger, meaning that the vowel underlying vowel is still /ɛ/, even if you realize it as [ɪ] before a nasal." —Stephen (Talk) 12:56, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, I know what the pin-pen merger is, and yes, I know that it is common (in certain regions). What's your point? --WikiTiki89 19:26, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- When I,an American, first read mene mene tekel upharsin about 10 years ago, I definitely guessed /mɛnɛ/. Just saying. —JohnC5 19:14, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- It sounds to me that you have the pin-pen merger, meaning that the vowel underlying vowel is still /ɛ/, even if you realize it as [ɪ] before a nasal. --WikiTiki89 19:11, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- A large population pronounces pen as pɪn. As far as I know, e is usually not pronounced /i/ except in certain cases, such as cede, mede, Pete, and the English words me, be, he, she, re, we; and usually these cases only apply to English words, not foreign words. Who would think to pronounce Pele as /pili/, or Pepe as /pipi/, or veni as /wini/? Anyway, I have never heard an American pronounce mene as /mini/, and if I had, it would have made me laugh because it sounds like meanie. That pronunciation really sounds funny (humorous) to me. /mɪnɪ/ is the only way I have ever said it. —Stephen (Talk) 19:07, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Stephen G. Brown: What do you mean "pronounced as spelled"? Can you give me an example of another English word where a stressed "e" is pronounced /ɪ/? The only example I know of is the word English itself. In most cases, "e" is pronounced either /ɛ/ or /i/ (as in helix or stele). Also, do you speak with the pin-pen merger, because that could be causing some of this confusion? --WikiTiki89 17:21, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, pronounced as spelled. e = ɪ or ɛ, i = ɪ or i. —Stephen (Talk) 16:19, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Stephen G. Brown: So you're saying you pronounce them like the word mini, even though they are spelled with an e? --WikiTiki89 14:36, 10 May 2016 (UTC)