Talk:plantage

RFV discussion: February–March 2022

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plantage

Claims to be an obsolete nonce word, but I'm sure this has been used plenty times since Shakey. A quick search revealed little, but I only had my searching level cranked up to 3 Notusbutthem (talk) 23:05, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

I've technically cited this (using level 9 searching skills). But I'm very unsatisfied with the new definition I wrote. This, that and the other (talk) 00:50, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Why not check the OED or other dictionaries? DCDuring (talk) 21:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

The Shakespeare quote doesn't provide unambiguous support for any part of our definition. Our definition offers too many alternatives, mostly not unambiguously supported by the cites. DCDuring (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2022 (UTC)

Please improve the definition if you can! I agree that it is rather terrible. This, that and the other (talk) 01:33, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

OED has some cites, but I don't want to copy them for obvious reasons. It splits the word into two senses: "vegetation" (2 cites, including Shakespeare) and "Originally: †the cultivation of plants; planting (obsolete). In later use: a place in which plants are cultivated, a plantation" (several cites). I chose to combine the senses because I doubted that it was possible to find three cites for the "vegetation" sense.

The Shakespeare quote is poor evidence for sure, but I don't think it should be removed; that use is likely the greatest driver of traffic to this entry. This, that and the other (talk) 01:32, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

I see no evidence for the sense “cultivation”. The quote from Lithgow, in which Cultinage is a typo for Cultivage,^[1] supports these being distinct; cultivation follows upon succesful planting. As to Shakespeare’s use, surely this refers to an ancient notion that plants needed to be planted in abidance to phases of the moon, such as Palladius’ advice: “Whatever is to be planted should be planted when the moon is increasing”, a belief reiterated in 1548 by Piero de’Crescenzi.^[2]  --Lambiam 22:44, 26 February 2022 (UTC)

Our definition of cultivate is just "To grow plants, notably crops" - are you saying it needs to be more specific?

We can make a distinction between the planting and the growing of crops, just like we distinguish giving birth to and raising children. The first is an event, the second is more a process.  --Lambiam 10:39, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Only a man could say "giving birth is an event and not a process" without blushing. Equinox ◑ 10:46, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

I did not say that. I said that raising children is more a process than an event. Are you implying that the birth of a child is not an event?  --Lambiam 11:10, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

Depends how fast we get to the clinic. Equinox ◑ 11:29, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

A few old glossaries give "plantage" meaning "plantain" (after Latin plantāgō), but I found no uses. I did find at least one source that speculated that this was what Shakespeare meant, although I don't recall why they thought that. The moon connection seems eminently more logical to me. This, that and the other (talk) 01:34, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

To me our all-inclusive one-line definition may as well read "Something having to do with plants." That doesn't seem satisfactory.

Also, the Alov citation from 1967 seems a poor justification for not calling the term "archaic". I wonder whether Alov was a native speaker of English, whatever his agronomic expertise. DCDuring (talk) 01:58, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

In light of Lambiam's comments the Shakespeare citation would support "planting" (gerund) as a definition. I think all the other citations would also support such a definition, excepting the Lithgow citation, which seems to be an uncountable noun meaning "planted fields".

An entry for plantage#French would be a help. DCDuring (talk) 02:22, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I have found another citation from 2008 from a UK law report (not free to access, unfortunately, and it isn't in the original judgment - just this particular law report's case digest): Virdi v Chana [2008] 11 WLUK 718:

The adjudicator had correctly noted that V was still able to maintain the part of the land that she owned and deal with it as the owner in that she had the ability to alter the surface of the land, maintain her fence, and plantage providing they did not interfere with the parking.

The reference to maintaining plantage seems to strongly imply cultivation, and the original judgment Virdi v Chana [2008] EWHC 2901 (Ch) confirms this, as it quotes the aforementioned adjudicator:

It seems to me relevant, too, that only a part of the Disputed Land belongs to Mrs Virdi. She is able to use that part by maintaining it, dealing with it as owner. So, for instance, she can grow a plant or trellis close to the fence (so long as it does not prevent parking); she could place bicycles on this land; she could alter the surface, replace and repaint the fencing, and so on.

. Theknightwho (talk) 03:19, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

In the new 2008 cite it isn't clear that plantage means anything more than "something to do with plants", especially since the PoS looks like verb than noun, plantage being in a parallel construction with alter and maintain. I wonder whether the law reporter's native language was English. The apparent misuse confirms that plantage is archaic, verging on obsolete. DCDuring (talk) 15:20, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I can’t agree that it isn’t implying cultivation - the second quotation shows that it’s paraphrasing “grow[ing] a plant or trellis”. It also isn’t being used as a verb - it’s using it as a gerund (“the planting/growing of plants”). The over-use of commas is all-too-frequent in law reports, unfortunately. Westlaw UK (i.e. WLUK) are a highly reliable source, though, so I’m not sure we can chalk this up to misuse. Theknightwho (talk) 16:37, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

In the citation it appears as a verb, not a noun. Therefore it cannot have a nominal meaning. Why should we accept use as a verb as evidence of the meaning of a noun? DCDuring (talk) 20:20, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

A gerund is a noun. Theknightwho (talk) 20:28, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

What gerund is there in the sentence using plantage in the citation? DCDuring (talk) 20:37, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Because that's the only possible way to interpret "plantage" as making any sense if you consider it a separate item to "maintain her fence", and even then it is extremely awkward. A much better interpretation is to say that "maintain" refers to the two separate items of "her fence" and "plantage", irrespective of the comma. If it said "maintain her fence, and trees ..." you wouldn't say that "trees" was being used as a verb - you'd say that the comma was being used poorly. Theknightwho (talk) 20:58, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's a gerund, because you would not say

she had the ability to [alter the surface of the land, maintain her fence, and] cultivating

. If we were to interpret it as a noun, I think the sentence would have to be changed as follows:

she had the ability to alter the surface of the land, and to maintain her fence, and plantage

98.170.164.88 20:52, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I think it's a poorly constructed list. The sentence it is paraphrasing uses the growing of a plant or trellis as an example of maintaining:

She is able to use that part by maintaining it, dealing with it as owner. So, for instance, she can grow a plant or trellis ...

Admittedly, it is a lot more ambiguous than it first appeared. Theknightwho (talk) 21:05, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

I suspect that the comma before “and” in the 2008 case digest is inappropriate, and that “plantage” is a noun to be read in coordination with “fence”. The sense seems to be “a (small) planted area”, rather like one of the Dutch senses.  --Lambiam 10:57, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

When I created this, I too thought it must be used in modern English, albeit slang (Shakespeare probably didn't intend it in a slangy way), like flamage. But I couldn't find anything very convincing. Equinox ◑ 04:06, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

RFV-passed with copious cites, but the entry may still need improving. This, that and the other (talk) 01:58, 26 March 2022 (UTC)