User talk:Atitarev/test-bg-vconj

@Atitarev Thank you! This is great. Benwing2 (talk) 11:32, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you, I will add more (or keep adding). It's going to be a busy day, though. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:53, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev No prob. There is a lot of good information in Bulgarian conjugation; it explains a lot about stress shifts and such. Benwing2 (talk) 00:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Checking the accuracy

(Notifying Benwing2, Bogorm, Bezimenen, Nauka, Ted Masters, Kiril kovachev): Hi all. Could you please check the accuracy in the tables. Please let me know if there are any mistakes before I make too many and check for stresses. Finding the right stresses on inflected forms is the hardest part, so native speakers' eyes are very important here.

@Benwing2, I have split further by types as in chitanka but you may find that this is too granular. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:05, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Here are my thoughts on the verbs listed on this test page:

The 1st present aorist almost always stresses one of the stem syllables (I don't know the technical name if there is one, but e.g. че́тох stresses the syllable that contains 'чет'), but there are dialectal variations. Some dialects, e.g. the Shopski dialect, sometimes places the stress on another part, e.g. учи́х (instead of у́чих). As far as I can tell, the extent of this is only 173ti and 176ti (of the verb types you have listed), and tends to manifest when the verb ends in -их; the и is often stressed in non-standard dialects/accents. What's important here is that the standard form of Bulgarian, the kind that is spoken on national television, reflects the Sofian accent, which tends to put the stress on the 'stem syllable' in those types of verbs. I am not personally aware of any accent that uses 'чето́х' - only 'че́тох', which leads me to believe that only certain types of verb have this trait. E.g. 173/176, but not 148.

To answer the questions in the table:

• the 1st present aorist (types 173/176) can take on multiple different stress patterns, but the standard stress is at the beginning.
• the imperative is usually stressed at the end, e.g. прави́ - this is more common than пра́ви.
• the past act aorist part is subject to the same rules as the 1st prs aorist.

All of these are answered just out of experience, so please notify me if what I've said is inconsistent for a verb I haven't considered, or if there're other mistakes/whatever. Kiril kovachev (talk) 21:22, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@Kiril kovachev: Great, thank you. I think we should try just the standard Bulgarian (Sofian, Eastern) but if some forms are consistently used for a verb type, I guess they can be included as well. Manual overrides with notes will be possible in the future.

@Benwing2 I will add some more types and irregular, such as съм (sǎm) but you can start building a test module slowly. Let's do bit by bit, maybe one type at a time. It might be easier to spot errors if we have full conjugation tables. What do you think? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 23:52, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev I am writing the verb module now. I should have a working version in a day or two. It should handle most of the verb classes in Bulgarian conjugation correctly. Irregular verbs will take more work esp. as that page doesn't describe many of them other than to note that бъ́да (bǎ́da), дам (dam), до́йда (dójda), раста́ (rastá) and ям (jam) are irregular. Benwing2 (talk) 03:29, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: Thank you. I will try to get the missing or unknown form for irregular verbs. We may need to stay in the test mode for some time before "releаsing to production". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:34, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: http://dictionary.sensagent.com/Bulgarian%20conjugation/en-en/ may also be somewhat useful. It has до́йда (dójda) inflections with stress marks. For this type https://rechnik.chitanka.info/type/146a I don't think we have a conjugation template. It has suppletive forms дошъ́л (došǎ́l) like other Slavic cognates. I'll add the stressed forms to my table, if you still need them. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Yes, please do, thanks! Benwing2 (talk) 05:43, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Benwing2: I've added a few verbs you mentioned and more. Added a new useful link. I did my best not to make mistakes but they are possible, besides, I am relying on what I was able to find - so I may have copied their errors, LOL. We'll need to verify more with native speakers. Bulgarian/Macedonian verbs are so different from other Slavic verbs! Let me know what other verbs or types you need, otherwise, I may add some missing groups I can find. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:21, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev Thank you! The sensagent.com link is especially helpful. It looks like an older version of the Wikipedia page but with more info in some respects than the current version. In my module I am currently using the scheme found in Bulgarian conjugation, which I'm guessing is a common scheme among Bulgarian textbooks. Most of the time you'll just need to specify the conjugation and class (e.g. 1.4, 2.2), and for verbs in -м you won't even need to specify that, because it can be inferred automatically. I have gotten through present, aorist, imperfect, imperative + present/aorist/imperfect participles for all the verb types and am working on the past passive participle. Yes, there seem to be a lot of differences between Bulgarian and Russian verbs. The formation of imperfectives from perfectives is different and more irregular, there are the aorist and imperfect forms that have mostly dropped out elsewhere, and there's this crazy evidential system that has no parallels elsewhere in Slavic. Benwing2 (talk) 17:50, 26 April 2020 (UTC)