User talk:Emi-Ireland

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Again, welcome! Chuck Entz (talk) 01:54, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Category boilerplate[edit]

Would you please put this on the other categories you created too? Keφr 07:50, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Keφr, thank you. I did as you suggested. Please let me know if you see any other things that need to be corrected. I'm a newbie and want to make sure I'm not making a mistake that later will have to be rectified for hundreds of words. I hope you see this; I am trying to figure out where to answer you. Emi-Ireland (talk) 21:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it's commendable that you want to be so cautious. Not everyone is, and that can cause frustration sometimes. For now I think it's best if you look to the existing things (entries, categories) for other languages, and then copy it and modify it to suit your language. For example, if you ever want to create Category:Wauja numerals, then you can look at the contents of Category:English numerals for an example, and copy the code that is there while changing the language code. —CodeCat 21:56, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, CodeCat. That was useful advice. I have started a numerals category. Emi-Ireland (talk) 03:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC) By the way, does anyone know why when I mouse over "Wauja" on this page: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Cardinal_numbers_0_to_9 , the alt text says "this page does not exist"? Emi-Ireland (talk) 04:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The same reason the link is red: no one has created a dictionary entry for the term Wauja.Chuck Entz (talk) 04:28, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I did create an entry yesterday: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wauja#Wauja. Maybe I did not code it properly. Or perhaps it needs time to update across wiktionary? Emi-Ireland (talk) 15:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think you should be leaving extra information on category pages. It's unlikely that someone will notice them there. It's better to put the information in the entries themselves, or in an appendix page. —CodeCat 15:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all, Wiktionary is case sensitive, so edits to wauja have no effect on links to Wauja. Secondly, the point of the link provided by the template is to refer people to the English-language entry on the language, if there is one, in case they've never heard of the language. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Links to categories[edit]

Start the link with a colon: Category:Wauja numerals. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:30, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for answering my question before I even had time to ask it! Also, thanks very much for advising me about where to put various types of information. I want to make sure I understand your comment. Which extra information are you referring to? Are you referring to the Usage Notes on Wauja Numerals I posted about 1 minute ago on this page: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:Wauja_numerals ? The Wauja have only about a dozen cardinal numbers. For each entry, I wanted to include a link back to the general usage notes on numbers. If this is not the correct place for me to ask such questions, please let me know.Emi-Ireland (talk) 15:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

If you want to add the same usage note to many pages, it would be best to create a template for them. You can then transclude the template onto many pages easily. —CodeCat 15:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Information like that is usually present in the Appendix namespace, for example: Appendix:Portuguese nouns, Appendix:English verbs. It’s uncommon for categories to have any content other than the catboiler template and the entries (which are listed automatically). — Ungoliant (falai) 15:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful advice. I will move the explanatory content from the Category page to an appendix page. Regarding using a template: is it considered bad form to include the same info on multiple pages? Because the explanation of how the Wauja use numbers is a fairly long paragraph. Should I simply put that paragraph on an appendix page and link to it from all the cardinal number lemma pages? Or is it OK to have the same thing appear on every cardinal number lemma page? Thanks very much for your advice. Emi-Ireland (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

That’s up to you. Here’s an example of what CodeCat is saying: {{U:en:who and whom}}. It is used in the pages who, whom, whoever and whomever. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:53, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the example, Ungoliant. Yes, I think I will make a template. The Wauja are much less reliant on numbers than are speakers of English, and that needs to be put in context. Their language is very rich and complex, but in their daily life, they traditionally had little need for numbers above five. During the past generation, however, they have been brought into the Brazilian cash economy to some degree, and this has suddenly created a linguistic need for using and understanding numbers in the hundreds and thousands. It will be interesting to see how the young generation of Wauja handles this.Emi-Ireland (talk) 16:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

yanumaka[edit]

Friendly advice, per WT:WWIN "Wikitionary is not Wikipedia". Specifically, a lot of the content you added in this (particularly the culture section) does not belong in a dictionary. It may be of use on Wikipedia though. :) User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 21:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I understand. I'll remove it. Certainly the history of jaguars in relation to the community should go elsewhere. But it seems there are some gray areas here. I think that to understand the meaning of the word jaguar yanumaka in Wauja, it is relevant to know that the jaguar is a symbol of inherited chiefly rank. It is not a definition of the word, but a symbolic association that is so important that jaguar ornaments are used to convey a message to all who visit the village that a certain man is the chief. In other words, the Wauja word has strong symbolic associations that the English word does not. These symbolic associations are not literal definitions of the word. Nonetheless, I understand the need to respect the culture of Wiktionary, and will remove all the historical and cultural material. If I put the cultural material in Wiktionary, is there any way to keep it in one grouping by culture, comparable to a grouping by language in Wiktionary? Thanks.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Would a definition like this work for yanumaka? # {{label|wau|figuratively}} chief, leaderCodeCat 22:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's an interesting question. The problem is, you would never say, "He's a yanumaka." or "He's like a yanumaka." Grammatically, you could construct such a sentence, but it wouldn't make sense to a Wauja. That is simply not a way the word can be used. However, Wauja can -- and do -- sing verses that are ostensibly about jaguars, but that everyone listening knows is in direct reference to the chief and no one else. I think I need to have a separate space, outside Wiktionary, where I can elaborate such things. The problem is, I can put up a site in WordPress, but after I'm gone, it will not persist. I guess a book would make the record permanent, but the Wauja themselves (and indigenous people generally) use the Internet much more than books. Also, the things I am removing from yanumaka are the very things that the Wauja themselves would think were important and want to keep in. I do understand, however, that Wiktionary can't be everything to everyone. Is there a way to use Wikipedia as a place to record ethnographic information about the Wauja in English, Portuguese, and Wauja? The idea is to have the information equally accessible to Wauja and non-Wauja. Academic ethnographies printed in books are not nearly as accessible as web pages that are maintained by a community.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Such poetic allusions happen in every language, even English. Medieval European texts are full of such symbolism. So is Shakespeare for that matter, and many religious texts. But even modern texts are full of references that are assumed understood. Understanding them requires understanding the context, the culture in which it was written. Because we live in the culture they're written in, we don't even realise that they might be incomprehensible to someone else, because it's obvious to us. I don't know if that means it's lexically significant to include it in a dictionary entry, though. —CodeCat 22:38, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

One thing occurs to me... for endangered languages, Wiktionary is an important linguistic a cultural revitalization tool. Could there be a way to allow (for endangered languages, at least) to include cultural and historic information that could be hidden if the user preferred not to see them? Because endangered languages have so little content written in them or about them. It's mostly bibles or inscrutable linguistic treatises by non-native speakers.

My current plan is to get a thousand words in the Eng/Wauja site, and then start setting up Eng/Port, and keep adding to both sites. Next year, I will be visiting the community and training young people to work on their own incubator site, all in Wauja. If historic and cultural information cannot be included in the English/Wauja and Portuguese/Wauja sites, could it perhaps be included in the all-Wauja site? Because that would be of much greater benefit to the Wauja community. Thanks for any ideas you can offer.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

You might check out Wikibooks. I hope my edit didn't come as too much of a shock, but I wanted to show what a typical dictionary entry would be like. There's room for some of the stuff I removed to be incorporated into the definition or perhaps a usage note, but the important thing to remember is that dictionaries are about the words, not the things the words refer to.Chuck Entz (talk) 22:47, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
To elaborate: I think you should have the bulk of your information at wikibooks (www.wikibooks.org), and have the Wiktionary entries on the words link to it, just as I put a link to the Wikipedia entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
OK, will do. Thanks for taking the time to explain to me what I need to do. In looking at my other entries, it appears I was filling in this additional information only for animals. I didn't do it for other kinds of terms. I will be mindful of that going forward. I would be grateful if you looked at some of my other entries (non-animal lemmas) and let me know if they are OK. I want to make sure I am on the right track going forward. Emi-Ireland (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for providing an example. Is it considered bad form to provide external links to more information?Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

It's ok, within reason. Links to sister projects- including Wikibooks- are routine. As for other sites, subject-matter links should be used sparingly, but are ok as long as they don't dominate the entry. Since we're so limited in our scope, it can be helpful to link to more comprehensive sources. I removed your references mostly because they seemed to be for the purpose of backing up the encyclopedic content rather than as sources for further information. Since Wiktionary is usage-based, rather than authority-based, there's normally no need to include references for definitions, except examples of usage. With less-documented languages such as this, though, there may be no usage in citeable form, so a dictionary will do. It's also routine to link to authoritative dictionaries, lexicons, etc. to give more information on a term. The only external links that are inherently bad form are to commercial and ideological sites that are trying to sell something or to push an agenda. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Shakespeare, you are right, all languages and cultures make use of symbolism. I guess I would say that if the cultural context is radically different, you need more explanatory notes. You need lots of notes to read Chaucer, even more for Beowulf. Without explanatory notes, it doesn't make much sense.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

But "different" is relative, and Wiktionary tries to be agnostic about that. It's aimed at English speakers, but not necessarily people born and raised in Anglo-Saxon-Norman culture. People in India will make very different allusions and references that a speaker in Scotland might not understand, despite it being English. —CodeCat 23:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

That's true. Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you guys pointed out your concerns before I had gone too far down that path.Emi-Ireland (talk) 23:29, 17 August 2014 (UTC)