User talk:Emi-Ireland

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to: navigation, search


Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

  • Entry layout explained (ELE) is a detailed policy documenting how Wiktionary pages should be formatted. All entries should conform to this standard. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing page for a similar word, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
  • Our Criteria for inclusion (CFI) define exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary, though it may be a bit technical and longwinded. The most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
  • If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
  • The FAQ aims to answer most of your remaining questions, and there are several help pages that you can browse for more information.
  • A glossary of our technical jargon, and some hints for dealing with the more common communication issues.
  • If you have anything to ask about or suggest, we have several discussion rooms. Feel free to ask any other editors in person if you have any problems or question, by posting a message on their talk page.

You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage. This shows which languages you know, so other editors know which languages you'll be working on, and what they can ask you for help with.

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! If you have any questions, bring them to the Wiktionary:Information desk, or ask me on my talk page. If you do so, please sign your posts with four tildes: ~~~~ which automatically produces your username and the current date and time.

Again, welcome! Chuck Entz (talk) 01:54, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Category boilerplate[edit]

Would you please put this on the other categories you created too? Keφr 07:50, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Keφr, thank you. I did as you suggested. Please let me know if you see any other things that need to be corrected. I'm a newbie and want to make sure I'm not making a mistake that later will have to be rectified for hundreds of words. I hope you see this; I am trying to figure out where to answer you. Emi-Ireland (talk) 21:46, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I think it's commendable that you want to be so cautious. Not everyone is, and that can cause frustration sometimes. For now I think it's best if you look to the existing things (entries, categories) for other languages, and then copy it and modify it to suit your language. For example, if you ever want to create Category:Wauja numerals, then you can look at the contents of Category:English numerals for an example, and copy the code that is there while changing the language code. —CodeCat 21:56, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, CodeCat. That was useful advice. I have started a numerals category. Emi-Ireland (talk) 03:41, 15 August 2014 (UTC) By the way, does anyone know why when I mouse over "Wauja" on this page: , the alt text says "this page does not exist"? Emi-Ireland (talk) 04:01, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

The same reason the link is red: no one has created a dictionary entry for the term Wauja.Chuck Entz (talk) 04:28, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I did create an entry yesterday: Maybe I did not code it properly. Or perhaps it needs time to update across wiktionary? Emi-Ireland (talk) 15:18, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't think you should be leaving extra information on category pages. It's unlikely that someone will notice them there. It's better to put the information in the entries themselves, or in an appendix page. —CodeCat 15:22, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
First of all, Wiktionary is case sensitive, so edits to wauja have no effect on links to Wauja. Secondly, the point of the link provided by the template is to refer people to the English-language entry on the language, if there is one, in case they've never heard of the language. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:42, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Links to categories[edit]

Start the link with a colon: Category:Wauja numerals. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:30, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for answering my question before I even had time to ask it! Also, thanks very much for advising me about where to put various types of information. I want to make sure I understand your comment. Which extra information are you referring to? Are you referring to the Usage Notes on Wauja Numerals I posted about 1 minute ago on this page: ? The Wauja have only about a dozen cardinal numbers. For each entry, I wanted to include a link back to the general usage notes on numbers. If this is not the correct place for me to ask such questions, please let me know.Emi-Ireland (talk) 15:36, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

If you want to add the same usage note to many pages, it would be best to create a template for them. You can then transclude the template onto many pages easily. —CodeCat 15:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
Information like that is usually present in the Appendix namespace, for example: Appendix:Portuguese nouns, Appendix:English verbs. It’s uncommon for categories to have any content other than the catboiler template and the entries (which are listed automatically). — Ungoliant (falai) 15:43, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the helpful advice. I will move the explanatory content from the Category page to an appendix page. Regarding using a template: is it considered bad form to include the same info on multiple pages? Because the explanation of how the Wauja use numbers is a fairly long paragraph. Should I simply put that paragraph on an appendix page and link to it from all the cardinal number lemma pages? Or is it OK to have the same thing appear on every cardinal number lemma page? Thanks very much for your advice. Emi-Ireland (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

That’s up to you. Here’s an example of what CodeCat is saying: {{U:en:who and whom}}. It is used in the pages who, whom, whoever and whomever. — Ungoliant (falai) 15:53, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for the example, Ungoliant. Yes, I think I will make a template. The Wauja are much less reliant on numbers than are speakers of English, and that needs to be put in context. Their language is very rich and complex, but in their daily life, they traditionally had little need for numbers above five. During the past generation, however, they have been brought into the Brazilian cash economy to some degree, and this has suddenly created a linguistic need for using and understanding numbers in the hundreds and thousands. It will be interesting to see how the young generation of Wauja handles this.Emi-Ireland (talk) 16:47, 15 August 2014 (UTC)


Friendly advice, per WT:WWIN "Wikitionary is not Wikipedia". Specifically, a lot of the content you added in this (particularly the culture section) does not belong in a dictionary. It may be of use on Wikipedia though. :) User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 21:03, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

I understand. I'll remove it. Certainly the history of jaguars in relation to the community should go elsewhere. But it seems there are some gray areas here. I think that to understand the meaning of the word jaguar yanumaka in Wauja, it is relevant to know that the jaguar is a symbol of inherited chiefly rank. It is not a definition of the word, but a symbolic association that is so important that jaguar ornaments are used to convey a message to all who visit the village that a certain man is the chief. In other words, the Wauja word has strong symbolic associations that the English word does not. These symbolic associations are not literal definitions of the word. Nonetheless, I understand the need to respect the culture of Wiktionary, and will remove all the historical and cultural material. If I put the cultural material in Wiktionary, is there any way to keep it in one grouping by culture, comparable to a grouping by language in Wiktionary? Thanks.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:05, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Would a definition like this work for yanumaka? # {{label|wau|figuratively}} chief, leaderCodeCat 22:12, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, that's an interesting question. The problem is, you would never say, "He's a yanumaka." or "He's like a yanumaka." Grammatically, you could construct such a sentence, but it wouldn't make sense to a Wauja. That is simply not a way the word can be used. However, Wauja can -- and do -- sing verses that are ostensibly about jaguars, but that everyone listening knows is in direct reference to the chief and no one else. I think I need to have a separate space, outside Wiktionary, where I can elaborate such things. The problem is, I can put up a site in WordPress, but after I'm gone, it will not persist. I guess a book would make the record permanent, but the Wauja themselves (and indigenous people generally) use the Internet much more than books. Also, the things I am removing from yanumaka are the very things that the Wauja themselves would think were important and want to keep in. I do understand, however, that Wiktionary can't be everything to everyone. Is there a way to use Wikipedia as a place to record ethnographic information about the Wauja in English, Portuguese, and Wauja? The idea is to have the information equally accessible to Wauja and non-Wauja. Academic ethnographies printed in books are not nearly as accessible as web pages that are maintained by a community.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Such poetic allusions happen in every language, even English. Medieval European texts are full of such symbolism. So is Shakespeare for that matter, and many religious texts. But even modern texts are full of references that are assumed understood. Understanding them requires understanding the context, the culture in which it was written. Because we live in the culture they're written in, we don't even realise that they might be incomprehensible to someone else, because it's obvious to us. I don't know if that means it's lexically significant to include it in a dictionary entry, though. —CodeCat 22:38, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

One thing occurs to me... for endangered languages, Wiktionary is an important linguistic a cultural revitalization tool. Could there be a way to allow (for endangered languages, at least) to include cultural and historic information that could be hidden if the user preferred not to see them? Because endangered languages have so little content written in them or about them. It's mostly bibles or inscrutable linguistic treatises by non-native speakers.

My current plan is to get a thousand words in the Eng/Wauja site, and then start setting up Eng/Port, and keep adding to both sites. Next year, I will be visiting the community and training young people to work on their own incubator site, all in Wauja. If historic and cultural information cannot be included in the English/Wauja and Portuguese/Wauja sites, could it perhaps be included in the all-Wauja site? Because that would be of much greater benefit to the Wauja community. Thanks for any ideas you can offer.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:46, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

You might check out Wikibooks. I hope my edit didn't come as too much of a shock, but I wanted to show what a typical dictionary entry would be like. There's room for some of the stuff I removed to be incorporated into the definition or perhaps a usage note, but the important thing to remember is that dictionaries are about the words, not the things the words refer to.Chuck Entz (talk) 22:47, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
To elaborate: I think you should have the bulk of your information at wikibooks (, and have the Wiktionary entries on the words link to it, just as I put a link to the Wikipedia entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:57, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
OK, will do. Thanks for taking the time to explain to me what I need to do. In looking at my other entries, it appears I was filling in this additional information only for animals. I didn't do it for other kinds of terms. I will be mindful of that going forward. I would be grateful if you looked at some of my other entries (non-animal lemmas) and let me know if they are OK. I want to make sure I am on the right track going forward. Emi-Ireland (talk) 23:15, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for providing an example. Is it considered bad form to provide external links to more information?Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:55, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

It's ok, within reason. Links to sister projects- including Wikibooks- are routine. As for other sites, subject-matter links should be used sparingly, but are ok as long as they don't dominate the entry. Since we're so limited in our scope, it can be helpful to link to more comprehensive sources. I removed your references mostly because they seemed to be for the purpose of backing up the encyclopedic content rather than as sources for further information. Since Wiktionary is usage-based, rather than authority-based, there's normally no need to include references for definitions, except examples of usage. With less-documented languages such as this, though, there may be no usage in citeable form, so a dictionary will do. It's also routine to link to authoritative dictionaries, lexicons, etc. to give more information on a term. The only external links that are inherently bad form are to commercial and ideological sites that are trying to sell something or to push an agenda. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:44, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Shakespeare, you are right, all languages and cultures make use of symbolism. I guess I would say that if the cultural context is radically different, you need more explanatory notes. You need lots of notes to read Chaucer, even more for Beowulf. Without explanatory notes, it doesn't make much sense.Emi-Ireland (talk) 22:51, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

But "different" is relative, and Wiktionary tries to be agnostic about that. It's aimed at English speakers, but not necessarily people born and raised in Anglo-Saxon-Norman culture. People in India will make very different allusions and references that a speaker in Scotland might not understand, despite it being English. —CodeCat 23:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

That's true. Thanks for the feedback. I'm glad you guys pointed out your concerns before I had gone too far down that path.Emi-Ireland (talk) 23:29, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Some notes[edit]

I made some changes to -naun.

  1. I wrapped the definition in the template {{n-g}}, which is short for {{non-gloss definition}}. This template should be used when the definition is not actually a meaning but more of a description of what something is or how something is used.
  2. I also changed the headings; according to WT:ELE (the main policy for entry layout), headings should only have the first word capitalized, and certain headings should be level 4 (with ====).
  3. I added a cat2= parameter to the {{head}} template. This simply tells it to add a second category to the entry. In this case I've added Category:Wauja inflectional suffixes, which seems fitting because this is apparently a plural suffix. There are also categories for other types of suffix depending on what kind of words they form, such as Category:English noun-forming suffixes.

I also have some notes about the long list of related terms.

  1. Words that are actually derived from something use the "Derived terms" heading instead.
  2. For suffixes, you can also use this instead of listing all the terms manually. On a line right below the "Derived terms" header, write: {{suffixsee|wau}}. This will automatically show a list of all the pages in Category:Wauja words suffixed with -naun, which is much easier than having to maintain the list manually.
  3. More importantly though, if this is simply an inflectional suffix, then it is probably better not to use a category for it at all. We don't put all the English plural noun forms into Category:English words suffixed with -s; just imagine how big such a category would be! So what I would recommend is to use this on the entry yamukunauntope: {{affix|wau|yamukunaun|t1=children|-tope|t2=all, every}}. After all the word was formed by adding -tope to the plural, not by first creating the plural. The plural already existed before.

CodeCat 02:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes you are right on all counts. This is very helpful. I will remove the list of words and put it in my personal "words to post" list. Then the words will show up on the appropriate category page. The list is somewhat useful (unlike a list of English words suffixed with -s) because only a few categories of nouns can take plural at all. Emi-Ireland (talk) 02:55, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I changed the Etymology for yamukunauntope as suggested. Makes more sense this way. People can still find the singular if they care to do so.Emi-Ireland (talk) 03:00, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

An alternative you could try is, instead of categorising the plural forms, categorise the singular. Many languages divide lemmas of words based on the type of inflected forms they take. For example, there's Category:Dutch nouns with plural in -en, Category:Finnish kala-type nominals or Category:Latin second conjugation verbs. So if you think it's better, you can make a category like Category:Wauja nouns with plural in -naun or if you don't need to be specific, Category:Wauja nouns with plural. There is no ready-made category for this, so you'll have to add the parent categories yourself if you create it. —CodeCat 03:04, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that sounds like a very good idea. I noticed that some of my -naun plurals (seen here are not showing up on the page "Wauja words suffixed with -naun" (at Shouldn't they be listed there, as with any other suffix? Emi-Ireland (talk) 03:18, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

They don't just magically appear in such a category. You have to use a template that's designed to add them. That's what {{suffix}} or {{affix}} or {{prefix}} does. Quite often, half of what templates do is add entries to categories. Some of them, such as {{head}} can do quite a variety of categories, depending on the parameters, while others are very simple and straightforward. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:34, 12 November 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Chuck, that's what I needed. I put in an etymology for amunaunaun, and it did the trick.Emi-Ireland (talk) 03:50, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Question about adding a parameter to create a footer link to the other suffix category[edit]

One last question tonight -- I like yamukunauntope much better now with your edits. It's cleaner and more concise. However, at the bottom of the page, there's a link to "Wauja words suffixed with -tope," but no longer a link to "Wauja words suffixed with -naun". This word has two suffixes and it's good to keep track of that. Some words have three or more suffixes and it will be interesting to monitor which can combine with which, in what sequence, and which are never seen together. Is there some way I can add a parameter to one of the templates on the page that will not add anything to this entry except a link at the bottom: "Wauja words suffixed with -naun"? Thanks for all your advice. It is a challenge to keep up! Emi-Ireland (talk) 04:40, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no clear answer to this because it depends on how you interpret "suffixed with". So far, most people on Wiktionary have interpreted it to mean "this word was created by adding this suffix". In the case of yamukunauntope, the suffix -naun was already there, so it wasn't created by adding it. Therefore it's not added to the category. There are probably some people who think that the categories should show all the affixes that a word contains rather than only those which were used to create the word from its parts. So this is really something that might need a Beer Parlour discussion first as there are probably a lot of arguments in favour of one approach or the other, and also many possible ways to solve it. —CodeCat 14:46, 12 November 2014 (UTC)