Talk:膨れる

Etym

@Chuterix, why is the hypothetical Proto root reconstructed as puko-?

I've also read elsewhere that this is connected to verb 吹く (fuku, “to blow”), from the idea of "blowing into something to make it expand". There are a few other verbs that appear to be derived from [VERB]-u (as yodan) + -ru, such as 巻く (maku) and 捲る (makuru), 剥く and 剥くる, probably also 撓む (tawamu) and 戯れる (tawamureru).

There's also that -ro element in 袋 (fukuro), which appears in numerous other words as what looks like ancient suffix indicating "inside, interior". I think we need to look at puku as the root in Japonic.

If this is from PIE bʰelǵʰ-, what happens to the "L"? All other descendant languages include this.

If we look at the core PIE meaning of to swell, then surely a Japonic connection to 張る (haru, “to make taut”) → 張れる (hareru, “to become taut, to swell”) would be more likely?

PIE is solidly researched, whereas this connection to hypothesized Japonic *pukoru appears to be tenuous and speculative at best. I've reverted your edit at Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/bʰelǵʰ- accordingly. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 04:54, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

From here, also in Proto-Japonic beginning with Old Japanese, a specific *-o- would become -u- in Old Japanese. However it’s very strange when 袋 (fukuro, “bag”) gets reconstructed as *pukuro.

The ro element in fukuro is pronounced ro₁ in Old Japanese, but your surface analyses such as 所 (tokoro, “place”) are called ro₂. Unless you find such context pronounced OJP ro₁ the ro element is speculation.

I’m evaluating if fukureru is related to the blow sense you gave me.

I can suppose *bʰel- > no proto-japonic (yet) > 張る (haru). As for how "L" in proto-indo-european *bʰelǵʰ-, I assume shift of *el > *eyu > *eû > *iû > *û > *u (hypothetical, may not be correct).

Again I say this:

If comparing and deriving from non-Japonic languages, the semantic and phonetic sound changes are yet to be explained, so possibly just coincidental.

I’ll probably get to more details tomorrow. Chuterix (talk) 06:01, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry I had no plans on what to write yesterday. My details should be enough. As for relating to fuku (blow sense), possibly. The first attestation of fuku in Old Japanese was in the Kojiki. Pukure (in ONCOJ only attested once in Manyoshu and means fat person for whatever reason) Chuterix (talk) 17:12, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

• Good catch on the 甲・乙 vowel value, hadn't marked that earlier.

FWIW, my local NKD entry suggests that ふくろ is cognate with ふくむ. The underlying idea of "containing" seems compelling.

(Unfortunately, the Kotobank NKD entry is missing all its etymology info. This disappeared a few years ago when they "upgraded" the site UI; I suspect that a developer flubbed a script to convert from an older data format and accidentally stripped certain entry info.)

• Re: coda consonant "L", I do note that coda "L" in Korean borrowings from Chinese corresponds to final し・ち・つ in Japanese. Compare 日 -- KO il (from older nil), JA nichi, 出 -- KO chul, JA shutsu, etc. etc.

That said, these seem to point towards a phonological shift in Korean, as the Middle Chinese reconstructions that I've looked at generally end in something like -t. I am uncertain if there are any cases where the Middle Chinese ends in -L? Finding any such instances might be informative. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 07:50, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Possible connection to 含む, link between fuku and fukuru

@Chuterix, re: this edit:

Have a look at the Sakura Paris entry for 含む here, and the NKD page at Kotobank for 含 here. Nowhere does it say that ふくむ is derived from ふふむ -- I believe these are two separate terms.

Also, with regard to any relationship between ふく and ふくる (modern ふくれる), there does appear to be a small group of verbs from early in the language where there is a two-mora verb, then that same pair of morae + る. See also maku → makuru and muku → mukuru, possibly also kaku ("to be missing") → kakuru (modern kakureru, "to hide"), kuku (modern kukeru, "to sew together") → kukuru ("to pull together, to gather into one place"), kuku ("to come through the gaps in something") → kukuru (modern kuguru, "to leak through"), etc. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:19, 17 February 2023 (UTC)