Talk:born in a barn

born in a barn

English. This entry has some real problems, but I'm having trouble pinning down exactly how to fix them. The definitions:

1. (en, idiomatic) Lacking a sense of etiquette; ill-mannered.
2. Of humble birth, especially when referring to Jesus Christ.
3. (en, idiomatic) Engaging in the annoying behavior of inappropriately, and usually neglectfully, leaving open a door or window.

I'm more concerned with the first and last definitions, though the middle one seems to be just a play on the other two.

The phrase is mostly used in the rhetorical question: "were you born in a barn?". Asking that is a way of indirectly criticizing someone for bad manners, especially with regard to leaving a door or window open. Another variation is to say "you must have been born in a barn."

The indirectness seems to be where things are going wrong. The best way to see this is by substituting in the definitions: "Were you [Lacking a sense of etiquette/ill-mannered]?". "Were you [leaving open a door or window]?". To start with, the time frame of the phrase is always in the past relative to the time period of the utterance as a whole, but the first and last definitions are in the same time frame. Also, this is a rhetorical question/metaphor, so the phrase isn't supposed to be true- it's just implied that the behavior of the other person is like what one might expect if it were.

At first I thought this could be fixed by moving the entry to "were you born in a barn", but the variations make that difficult.

Any suggestions? Chuck Entz (talk) 10:24, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

"(idiomatic) In phrases such as were you born in a barn?: criticizing the person to whom the phrase is directed as lacking a sense of etiquette or being ill-mannered." — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:31, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Compare "were you born in a tent". Equinox ◑ 13:36, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

This has only been directed at me specifically for leaving the door open. I never had the sense that it was about manners but about not knowing enough to close the door or having grown up in a place where it is customary to leave the door open (as if it would be typical to leave barn doors open, which, not having been around barns, let alone been born in one, I don't have sufficient information to comment on). Eric Partridge in A Dictionary of catch phrases actually gives leaving the door open as a sole usage for this phrase, without any attribution of any further underlying meaning. Unless it has been documented that people using this expression are specifically intending this as a comment on manners or etiquette (is there a difference?), lack of education, or humble upbringing, then it would seem to be synthesis to extend the meaning any further than "Close the door!". Thisisnotatest (talk) 06:45, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

There is also a weird use to imply delusion of divinity, and related poetic reference to Bethlehem myths. "He thinks he was born in a born." - Amgine/ ^t·e 16:41, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Our quotations show that it is used to criticize bad manners or ignorance of social expectations in addition to leaving doors open. — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 00:19, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz I've rewritten both senses using SMUconlaw's suggestion. They're now both non-gloss, but I don't think there is any gloss definition that would be substitutable for the phrase. I think this discussion is now closable, but I'll leave it open for a bit because I think there's still room for improvement. — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 00:19, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

I've rephrased them both again, and am marking this discussion as closed. — excarnateSojourner (talk · contrib) 23:50, 15 March 2023 (UTC)

It's probably not (talk) 09:41, 19 June 2023 (UTC)