Talk:breakthrough infection
Latest comment: 1 year ago by -sche in topic RFD discussion: January–August 2022
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The phrase breakthrough infection is not idiomatic since, as I recently added, breakthrough can mean "Involving the contraction of a disease by a person with a decreased susceptibility." Compare constructions such as breakthrough case, breakthrough death, breakthrough hospitalizations, breakthrough COVID (as in "test positive for breakthrough COVID"). —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 06:35, 27 January 2022 (UTC) (edited)
- Does that definition apply in any other context other than as a pairing with infection (or its synonyms)? Otherwise, it feels more natural to include it with the relevant noun as idiomatic. Theknightwho (talk) 17:35, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- If I understand you correctly, I believe the answer is yes. I find constructions like "Then they hear that 30 percent are breakthrough so they're saying, 'why bother getting vaccinated?'"[1] which shows the adjective isn't bound. More phrases I find are breakthrough positive, breakthrough virus[2], breakthrough status[3], breakthrough patient[4], and breakthrough group[5]. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 18:58, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- That does seem to be a wide enough spread, yes. I would perhaps amend the definition to "Involving the contraction of a disease by a person considered to have been immunised against it". Feels like "decreased susceptibility" is a little vague and covers demographics who are simply less suscpetible than other people, rather than people who have undergone some event (vaccine or prior infection) that makes them less susceptible than they otherwise would have been without it. Theknightwho (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with @ Theknightwho, the definition at breakthrough is vague as “breakthrough infection” (in reference to COVID-19) is primarily used with people who’ve been vaccinated, not even folks who’ve caught the virus before, though I personally perceive breakthrough infection as idiomatic. AG202 (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with y'all's points, I felt like "decreased susceptibility" was vague when I wrote the definition. To AG202's point, I also associate the phrase breakthrough infection with vaccinated people contracting COVID-19, a distinction regarding the adjective also made by some the sources I linked in my last comment. Despite that, some quotes seem to imply that such a distinction is not always made, such as "That has increased the probability of breakthrough infections even among the vaccinated."[6]. The existence of the phrase "vaccine breakthrough infections" (apparently abbreviated VBI) may also suggest a lack of distinction. As to Theknightwho's suggested definition, I personally wouldn't think "immunised" would cover treatment by antibiotics as described in the pre-2005 quote currently at the breakthrough entry. In contrast, Mondofacto's dictionary includes "protection [...] conferred [...] by [...] nonimmunologic factors" under its medical definition of "immunity". Given all that, I could see a definition like "Involving the contraction of a disease by a person immunised against it, particularly via vaccination", though it would probably confuse some readers. Note that I removed "considered to have been" since being immune, in a technical, medical sense, does not seem to be absolute. Just some level of protection against contraction. Our definitions of immune and immunity should probably be updated to reflect this. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 21:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- The sense is older than COVID-19.[7][8] --Lambiam 22:27, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
- I agree with y'all's points, I felt like "decreased susceptibility" was vague when I wrote the definition. To AG202's point, I also associate the phrase breakthrough infection with vaccinated people contracting COVID-19, a distinction regarding the adjective also made by some the sources I linked in my last comment. Despite that, some quotes seem to imply that such a distinction is not always made, such as "That has increased the probability of breakthrough infections even among the vaccinated."[6]. The existence of the phrase "vaccine breakthrough infections" (apparently abbreviated VBI) may also suggest a lack of distinction. As to Theknightwho's suggested definition, I personally wouldn't think "immunised" would cover treatment by antibiotics as described in the pre-2005 quote currently at the breakthrough entry. In contrast, Mondofacto's dictionary includes "protection [...] conferred [...] by [...] nonimmunologic factors" under its medical definition of "immunity". Given all that, I could see a definition like "Involving the contraction of a disease by a person immunised against it, particularly via vaccination", though it would probably confuse some readers. Note that I removed "considered to have been" since being immune, in a technical, medical sense, does not seem to be absolute. Just some level of protection against contraction. Our definitions of immune and immunity should probably be updated to reflect this. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 21:32, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with @ Theknightwho, the definition at breakthrough is vague as “breakthrough infection” (in reference to COVID-19) is primarily used with people who’ve been vaccinated, not even folks who’ve caught the virus before, though I personally perceive breakthrough infection as idiomatic. AG202 (talk) 20:05, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- That does seem to be a wide enough spread, yes. I would perhaps amend the definition to "Involving the contraction of a disease by a person considered to have been immunised against it". Feels like "decreased susceptibility" is a little vague and covers demographics who are simply less suscpetible than other people, rather than people who have undergone some event (vaccine or prior infection) that makes them less susceptible than they otherwise would have been without it. Theknightwho (talk) 19:33, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- If I understand you correctly, I believe the answer is yes. I find constructions like "Then they hear that 30 percent are breakthrough so they're saying, 'why bother getting vaccinated?'"[1] which shows the adjective isn't bound. More phrases I find are breakthrough positive, breakthrough virus[2], breakthrough status[3], breakthrough patient[4], and breakthrough group[5]. —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 18:58, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- Keep Just to be clear this is a vote to keep. AG202 (talk) 03:56, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Delete SOP. However we define breakthru, that's what this means also. DAVilla 21:59, 29 January 2022 (UTC)
- Delete or redirect, as it's just breakthrough + infection like all the other various collocations mentioned above; improve breakthrough as needed. - -sche (discuss) 02:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Delete (was Keep) - Wikipedia has w:Breakthrough pain, w:Breakthrough seizure, w:Breakthrough infection.
I'm not sure just redefining the adjective will cover all these in a way palatable to readers.Facts707 (talk) 08:41, 13 April 2022 (UTC) UPDATE: I added another sense to the adjective which covers breakthrough pain and breakthrough seizure. Facts707 (talk) 08:20, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- I wonder if this is a WT:JIFFY example? But I'm unsure if "breakthrough infection" came before that meaning of "breakthrough" AG202 (talk) 11:41, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I do note some collocations are ambiguous: breakthrough case could be a milestone in one's legal career or a patient with a disease or medical condition who thus far was thought to be safe due to vaccination, isolation, distance, etc. Facts707 (talk) 08:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- "I saw a board on my workbench" could mean that I use a saw to cut a piece of wood, or that I visually perceived that a piece of wood was on my workbench. That doesn't mean that anything is idiomatic. Ambiguity is a normal part of language. "I was sawing logs", on the other hand, could mean I was snoring- that's idiomatic. Chuck Entz (talk) 12:46, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- I do note some collocations are ambiguous: breakthrough case could be a milestone in one's legal career or a patient with a disease or medical condition who thus far was thought to be safe due to vaccination, isolation, distance, etc. Facts707 (talk) 08:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)
- Deleted. - -sche (discuss) 08:01, 20 August 2022 (UTC)