Talk:etlich

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RFV discussion: May 2016–May 2017[edit]

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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

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"er ist etlich" and "der etliche" (with der as article and not as relative pronoun) shouldn't exist, "ein etlicher" might exist but should be colloquial or dialectal. Similar "er ist einig", "der einige" and "ein einiger" shouldn't exist for the sense "a few". Note however that "einig" also means "united" as in "ein einig Volk von Brüdern" (Rütlischwur) which is missing in the entry. Maybe compare with [www.canoo.net/services/OnlineGrammar/InflectionRules/FRegeln-P/Pron-Indef/Pron-einige3.html canoo.net].
Also the masculine or neuter genitive singular of both words should be cited with at least one quote as it could also be "einiges" and "etliches" (compare with jeder, manch and adjectives which could or can have both endings). -80.133.102.22 13:03, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Wiktionary's entries on words like this are often messy; compare the words described at User_talk:-sche#German_ordinal_numbers, many of which still need to be standardized as to the placement of the lemma and the labelling of the part of speech. Bare etlich is attested in older works (google books:"etlich und" has many citations well into the 1800s; citations ostensibly from more recent centuries seem to all be quoting works from the 1800s or earlier), but the lemma form where the content is should probably be etlicher, based on modern usage. Bare einig with a relevant meaning is similarly (infrequently) attested but obsolete (Citations:einig); the lemma should be einiger, reflecting modern usage. The Duden reaches that conclusion in both cases, though it prefers forms with -e rather than -er — I have no strong preference for one or the other, but Wiktionary's practice has been to lemmatize -er rather than -e when not lemmatizing a bare form. - -sche (discuss) 19:09, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
The examples with einig seem to mean one: einig und zwanzig, einig und dreißig, einig und sechzig, that looks like ein und zwanzig or einundzwanzig etc., that is 21, 31, 61. Well, it could also mean "twenty and a few more". But then ohngefähr in "ohngefähr einig und zwanzig" could be pleonastic. As one can also find "etlich und zwanzig" etc., it might actually mean twenty and a few more. "ohngefähr einig und zwanzig" then could mean twenty and a few more, maybe just ten and some more, maybe even thirty and a few more, like 15 till 35 and not just 21 till 29. However, after searching for "einig and zwanzig" etc. these phrases should be very rare and just barely attestable.
einig as in "wir sind uns einig" is still common, so it shouldn't be moved. Maybe it should be split like einig as an adjective meaning united and einiger as a pronoun meaning a few. In any case there should be two different declension tables. Adjective: das Volk ist einig, ein einig(es) Volk, das einige Volk; pronoun: einiger Wein, einiges/einigen Weines, pl. einige Weine, einiger Weine, and no der Wein ist einig, ein einiger Wein, der einige Wein.
Regarding einiger and einige: Other sources might use the plural as the plural is more common and as the singular is used in "special" cases like with singularia tantum, material nouns, uncountable nouns, abstract nouns. By semantics, "some" and "a few" are in the plural. einiger Wein (Wein as material noun or uncountable noun comparable to water) means a little more amount of the liquid wine, while einige Weine (Wein as an appellative and countable noun) means a few bottles of wine or a few different kinds of wine.
As for etlich, it should be a pronoun etlicher, but as with mancher and manch there is also etlich (eg. "Von etlich[en] anderen vierfüßigen wilden Thieren", "Nachdem sie sich etlich[e] Tag[e] erquickt", "noch etlich[e] Meilen sey geritten"). The declension should be like etlicher Wein, etliches/etlichen Weines, pl. etliche Weine, etlicher Weine, and no der Wein ist etlich, ein etlicher Wein, der etliche Wein. -80.133.110.140 10:38, 9 May 2016 (UTC)
I think these are cited (see the citations in the entry and at the above-linked search and citations page), and the question is which of the adjectives' forms to make the lemma (the bare form or -er form, with the other pointing to it). I notice de.Wikt does lemmatize bare etlich; I have removed the declension table with the unwanted forms, and removed the tag from etlich, leaving it where it is, although one could make the case that it should be moved to etlicher. For einig the issue is a cleanup issue, of deciding whether to move (the relevant section of) the page to einige(r) with a link at einig, or vice versa. - -sche (discuss) 07:28, 19 May 2017 (UTC)
etlich- and einig- obviously do exist and are easy to cite. The problem obviously is the inflection.
  • For de.Wikt one can quote the above: "Wiktionary's entries on words like this are often messy". de.Wikt has "etlich" as lemma but not in the inflection table, thus it's contradicting and irritating. Does "etlich" exist, and if so, which form is it? Online dictionaries have "etliche" which should be the plural as lemma (www.duden.de/rechtschreibung/etliche and www.dwds.de/wb/etliche and www.canoo.net/etliche?lookup=caseSensitive).
  • Singulars do exist as it BTW also does for beide (e.g. "mit beider Hand" = "with both hands", although prescriptivists likely have a problem with the singular of "beide").
  • Bare form etlich does exists (as in "da ein Fuhrmann einem etlich Wein, oder Bier zu holen auf sich genommen", "noch etlich Geld aufnehmen müssen", "für etlich Geld", "etlich Weiber", "mit etlich Heiligthümern", "Mit etlich schönen weiten Brucken", "etlich schöne Töchter", "etlich Mühe"), but might be rarer (and prescriptivists might have a problem with it).
  • Predicative forms don't exist.
  • etlich- and einig- can't be precided by an article and are pronouns in German. If one makes the English distinction between pronoun in a strict sense and determiner, then etlich- is both, but the pronoun maybe is neuter and plural only (as in "etliche meinen" = "many [people] think" and as in "Goethe hat etliches von Kepler gelesen" = "Goethe read much of the works written by Kepler"). Also the pronoun maybe has no bare form "etlich".
If other claims are made, then the forms need attesting. Without predicative forms and forms with an article, one can use Template:de-decl-pronoun as
Declension of etlicher
masculine feminine neuter plural
nominative etlicher etliche etliches etliche
genitive etliches
etlichen
etlicher etliches
etlichen
etlicher
dative etlichem etlicher etlichem etlichen
accusative etlichen etliche etliches etliche
A note should be added to mention bare etlich which exist like manch. "etlich" could also placed in the table but as it occurs in many cases (also dative and not just nominative and accusative) a note IMHO is better.
Well, the title doesn't look nice because the first parameter is used twice.
Likely also a note could be added mentioning that the attributive singular and the bare forms are rarer, and that etlich not followed by a noun is not bare etlich but takes the endings neuter -es and plural -e (ie. not "er hat etlich gelesen" but "et hat etliches gelesen").
For the pronoun einig- it's a bit more complicated to find forms as there is an adjective einig. -84.161.43.47 00:19, 22 May 2017 (UTC)