Proto-Indo-European
Thanks!
But I also think that a-sounds were always welcome for to descend into Indo-Iranian languages. A good example that for is:
ghelh₂ed (ice):
- Persian: ژاله (zhala) ("hail")
Notes: Change of "g" to "s" (typical for Persian), change of first "e" to "a" (typical for Indo-Iranian).
The descendants by the o-grade I didn't remove, but enhance since I added the Proto-Germanic verb to it. Also, there was no Middle High German verb "tamen", but "tarnen". The term "tarni" was correct but already in Old High German "tarnan" existed, so I replaced it that with. I think my edit in the Germanic descendants on "*dʰer" was good, also since I added the forms of the zero-grade and other descendants.
By the way, so as example Icelandic "drottning" is by the zero-grade, thus: "*dʰr̥" descended "*dur" and so contraction "*dru".
But can Danish "dreng" then have descended of "dʰer"? By the short e-grade and then contraction?
The where I found "dʰer" doesn't thematize the root's inflection directly, but if the second root is that one, I assumed it as the athematic form.
I don't think we can use "*rey" since it has no descendants. And what does this Kluge's law mean?
For the sentences for the language boxes in Proto-Indo-European I suggest that we need the masculine and feminine suffixes for to form a noun of "*dʰer".
You are correct about *dʰr̥- becoming *dur-, but this is rather a problem as there isn't really any reason that it would become *dru-. On the other hand, even Germanic itself has some words that are obviously related to *druhtinaz, most importantly the verb *dreuganan "to serve". So the noun most likely goes back to *dʰrugʰ-ten-os or something similar, from the zero grade of the root *dʰrewgʰ- that the verb also derives from. The verb must derive from such a root, because it is a strong verb; Germanic strong verbs, bar a few exceptions, always derive from PIE verb roots.
There are similar problems with Old Norse drengr. It presumably derives from Germanic *drangiz or *drangijaz, so it would have to derive from an o-grade form of a root, which could be reconstructed as *dʰrengʰ-. Again, there is no reason to assume that *dor- (o-grade of *der-) would become *dro-. The only possibility for a relationship with *der- that I can think of is that *drangi(ja)z actually derives from the zero grade of the root, extended with a suffix: *dr-ongʰ- or the like. But the ablaut and accent relationships of such a noun don't seem to fit what is known about PIE, in particular the appearance of the o-grade. Then again I am not an Indo-European linguist so I don't know for sure, but it does seem like a rather shaky etymology. Deriving it from a root *dʰrengʰ- is far more straightforward and plausible.
Kluge's law is explained in the link I gave you. It explains the origins of Germanic geminated voiceless plosives, -pp-, -tt-, -kk- as resulting from a single plosive followed by -n- which then contracted. The Germanic ancestor of 'rock' is *rukkōnan, which contains such a geminated plosive, and using Kluge's law it can be related to the other words I listed without problems.
One last note... there are a few cases where -ur- is replaced with -ru-, but those cases are all analogical and were 'reverted' based on related words. The most prominent example is the verb Template:termx, which derives from a hypothetical root *bʰreg- (that does not have any certain cognates outside Germanic, so it could be a later coinage). The three grades would have been *bʰreg- (present), *bʰrog- (perfect singular), *bʰr̥g- (perfect nonsingular), which in Germanic would have become *brek-, *brak-, *burk-. It's obvious that the zero grade is anomalous here, since the vowel and consonant have been swapped. Presumably Germanic speakers would have realised the same, and may have metathesised the consonant and the vowel so that they matched the order they have in the other two grades. So this kind of change does happen, but it only happens based on analogy with related words. It doesn't happen 'out of the blue'.
I found out that "dʰre" is another form of "dʰer"; [[1]]. Can the "g" be added in Proto-Germanic just so? The sonorant change doesn't apply on "dʰre", thus: e-grade: dʰre → dre → dren → dren zero-grade: dʰr → dur → dru
I assume that "dru" could have existed, since words meaning "king" and "queen" descended from it.
Kluge's law is meaning, that German "rücken" is not "rücknen" and English "rock" is not "rockn". It is meaning that in Proto-Germanic plosive words have the "n", but in the Germanic languages it has been contracted.
Roots can't end in vowels, so *dʰre- is not a root. There is something called 'root extension' where a consonant (not a vowel!) is added onto another root, but I don't really know how that works.
Which words meaning king and queen descend from it?
Kluge's law describes a sound change that occurred in the history of Germanic. It is not convincingly accepted by linguists but there is still some evidence that seems hard to ignore. The change meant that a sequence of any PIE plosive (voiceless, voiced or aspirated) followed by n was converted into a geminate (double) voiceless plosive. For 'rock', the sequence of events according to Kluge's law could be roughly as follows: h₃ruknéh₂- > ruknā- > (by Kluge's law) rukkā- > rukkō- (infinitive *rukkōną).
Thanks!
In Icelandic "drottin" ("king"), "drottning" ("queen") and "drott" ("people"). It is actually complicated on whether these words descended from "*dʰer".
I recognized so that Kluge's law places a vowel between the plosive and the nasal infix in Proto-Germanic.
I summarize the correct spelling: ə = h₂ a = h₂e u = w
To form a noun from "*dʰer", are there substantivation suffixes that we can use?
Like I said, the root of *druhtinaz in Germanic is the verb *dreuganan, and this must have been a root at some point because it is a strong verbs. Strong verbs are always descended from 'primary' underived verbs in PIE, whereas weak verbs are secondary/derived verbs (and some of them were originally strong). So this means that an Indo-European root *dʰrewgʰ- almost certainly is the ancestor of this verb, implying that *dʰer- cannot be the ancestor.
Kluge's law has nothing to do with vowels or with the nasal infix. It affects only sequences of a plosive followed by -n-. Please don't confuse a nasal infix with a nasal suffix. The nasal infix was special; it occurred only in some verbs as a way to form the present stem, and was not used anywhere else in the entire language.
Thanks!
Yes, but Kluge's law placed a vowel between the plosive and the nasal suffix.
So because "*dreuganan" is an irregular verb it did not descend from "*dʰer", but it descended from "*dʰrewgʰ".
Can we find some nominalization suffixes for "*dʰer" ("to support")?
No it didn't place a vowel there, where did you get that from?
- dreuganan is not an irregular verb, it's a class 2 strong verb like many others. Strong verbs always derive from verb roots. Some strong verbs have suffixes, but there is no suffix -ewgʰ- in Indo-European, so it's clear that this verb was not suffixed. Therefore, the Germanic root must have also been an Indo-European root in origin.
There are two suffixes, Template:termx and Template:termx, which can be used to form agent nouns from verb roots. When attached to *dʰer- the result is *dʰértōr and *dʰr̥tḗr.
Thanks!
I just call irregular verbs what you call strong verbs.
I've created the category: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:User_ine-pro .
Hmm...what don't you propose on the templates?
Do you know what suffixes in Proto-Indo-European used that for:
- Adjective → Adverb
- Adjective → Noun
- Adjective → Verb
- Noun → Adjective
- Noun → Verb
- Verb → Adjective
- Verb → Noun
By the way, I saw an entry in Proto-Indo-European which contains some Anatolian descendants. Shouldn't we find a way to display the Lycian script and how do I request in entries? And same to Tocharian?
There were several suffixes for each of those in use, just like in English. I don't know any specific ones, and it is hard to reconstruct their meaning because the meaning and usage of suffixes can often change. Even if you compare English and Dutch (two closely related languages) you'll notice that where English uses the suffix -ness, Dutch prefers -heid, even though both languages have the 'other' suffix as well: English -hood, Dutch -nis.
There are some things that I know about PIE word derivation, mainly because it is similar in later languages. Adjectives could be used alone, without any noun. This still happens in German too, like 'ich möge den großen nicht'. In PIE this was even easier because nouns and adjectives were inflected the same. Sometimes, such 'substantivised' adjectives could become nouns. There are some linguists who believe that PIE, in earlier times, did not even have a real difference between nouns and adjectives, but that they formed a single common word class.
To convert nouns or adjectives into adverbs, specific cases were often used instead of suffixes. This still happened in Latin. A well-known example is how the suffix -mente was formed in the Romance languages. In Latin, there was no instrumental case, but the ablative case was used with an instrumental meaning (so it was an ablative-instrumental case). The noun mēns (“mind”) was feminine, and its ablative form was mente (“from a mind, with a mind”). The ablative could be combined with an adjective like rapidus (“quick”), used in the feminine ablative form rapidā; the result was rapidā mente meaning "with a quick mind" or "quick-mindedly". This kind of phrase became very widespread as the Romance languages evolved, and this particular example still exists: Italian rapidamente, French rapidement.
There are also some examples in English of an 'instrumental' (if you can call it that) being used with a noun to create an adverb: with haste means more or less the same as hastily. Other cases were also used to create adverbs. In the Germanic languages, the genitive case was particularly popular, and resulted in words like German einerseits, ebenfalls, mindestens and so on.
I don't really know anything about the Lycian script. You would have to ask in the Grease Pit.
Yes, in German you can substantivate adjectives easily into nouns, also the present participle! Also with the gerund form of verbs!
But a note to your text, "mögen" is also present irregular, "möge" is the subjunctive 1 first person singular of "mögen", so you need an additional phrase like "Er sagt, dass ich den großen möge" or you say the present indicative first person singular "mag".
The word "mögen" is a modal verb, other modal verbs in German are:
In German there are determinative compoundings (a way to make new words in German) with a genitive, but when making new words in German, the genitive is optional.
Essen ("meal”) + -s ("'s") (optional, but good) + Tisch ("table") = Essenstisch (provisional)
Meaningly: the meal's table.
Here is a Lycian font, but you have to register to download it, anyways the download is free. But the Lycian font is also in the unicode, so we can use it.
So I suppose to try to display the Lycian terms in Template:termx, cuz I don't have to register there because I already can display it.