Reconstruction talk:Proto-Celtic/kladiwos

Reborrowing

@Angr, Anglom, JohnC5 The entry says that the Brythonic form was borrowed from Irish, but is a Proto-Brythonic form actually reconstructable? At what time was it borrowed? —CodeCat 21:56, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

I mean, yeah, the forms listed can be reconstructed as *klėðɨβ < *kladib-. I'm not really sure on the Old Irish phonological side, but it seems to work out. Anglom (talk) 23:40, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

I guess it needs to be a Goidelic borrowing to explain the *β coming from *w, but frankly that's irregular in Goidelic too. And why is it marked as a reborrowing? Is the Goidelic word supposed to have been borrowed first from Brythonic, and then Brythonic borrowed it back? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:09, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the Old Irish form presupposes *kladibos, but the Middle Irish and Modern Irish as well as Brythonic forms (but in this respect really only the Breton form klezeñv is diagnostic) presuppose *kladimos. Instead, we reconstruct *kladiwos – which sounds less weird, fits gladius better and seems to be presupposed by the Slavic words. But where have these been borrowed from? They look like fairly recent loanwords, not like descendants from Proto-Slavic, which is what would we expect if they were really borrowed from Celtic in antiquity. The reconstruction *kladiwo- is found in Matasović, but I'm really puzzled by what happened in Irish, and I'm suspicious of the Slavic evidence too. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:16, 31 August 2023 (UTC)

Tangentially, I'm having trouble with the reconstruction of the PIE ancestor. Two roots have been proposed, with De Vaan giving *kelh₂- for percellō < *kl̥néh₂-, clādēs < *kl̥h₂-dʰéh₁-s, incolumis < PI *ənkalamis < *n̥-kl̥h₂-em-o/i-, calamitās < *kl̥h₂-em-o-. Strangely, we have calamitās from kadamitas, of which I am extremely skeptical for several reasons including whether kadamitas exists. Matasovic prefers *kleh₂d- ~ *kl̥h₂d- for this term and does not relate it to the Latin terms (as far as I can remember from reading last night). He also gives *klad-o- (“to dig”) and *klādos (“ditch”), with appeals to Dybo's Law in Celtic to account for the shortening. LIV, as I recall, has *kelh₂-. I'm not sure that Celtic should be included with this root unless it's an extension. —JohnC5 15:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

@JohnC5 Kadamitas is claimed by the grammarian Marius Victorinus (4th. c. CE) to have been an archaic pronunciation of calamitas, which Pompey is supposed to have been fond of using. He also mentions dingua, dacrima and some other archaic examples where d would have changed to l. Since those other examples seem etymologically sound and likely did exist, Victorinus' sources for these archaisms were apparently fairly reliable, indicating to me that kadamitas likely did exist. — Kleio (t · c) 16:10, 5 December 2016 (UTC)