Talk:falafel

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falafel

Sense: (Australian, countable) A falafel roll. — Redundant to Pita with falafel balls inside. — Pingku^dimmi 10:03, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. - -sche (discuss) 21:40, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Depends if roll mean a sandwich made with pita. If it doesn't, then surely we can just change pita to bread or something more general, right? So it's redundant no matter what. Am I right? Mglovesfun (talk) 20:09, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I expect it to mean a circle of pita, rolled up around the falafels and folded at one end, effectively making a 'pouch' (in the style of a yiros). (Our definition of pita specifies 'pouch'. Is this what the definition refers to?) Anything else would start to break the rules of Middle Eastern cuisine, Australian style. Which would not necessarily be a bad thing.— Pingku^dimmi 05:35, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I've merged the senses. - -sche (discuss) 04:58, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

RFV discussion: December 2019–January 2020

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falafel

Sense 2: "A pita with falafel balls inside." But the given citation refers to "falafel rolls". That seems like finding a citation for "ham sandwich" and then defining "ham" (alone) as "ham between pieces of bread". Equinox ◑ 13:09, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, that cite belongs with the previous definition, and I have moved it there. I have also cited this sense. It is like the term "hamburger", which can refer either to the minced meat, or to the fried patty in a bun with all the fixings. Kiwima (talk) 14:50, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't at all understand how vague cites like "go out for a falafel" and "he's eating a falafel" can be determined to involve an enclosing roll and not just the ball. Equinox ◑ 14:56, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

You don't just eat a single falafel ball though. Literally nobody does that, you always get a pita with it (and usually some hummus on that too as well as some veggies) and that is 100% what is meant in those cites too. It's a metonymic usage that became the standard usage (as falafel balls are overwhelmingly eaten w/ a pita, unless specified as "falafel platter" or whatever which is more rare). — Mnemosientje (t · c) 15:28, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

(e/c) Yeah. I guess the fact that it's unlikely a person would go out for a single (small) falafel ball speaks in favor of "a falafel" being something more, but I admit that prior to this I would've assumed ordering "a falafel" meant an order of falafel balls, which might come with pita on the side, but not a sandwich per se. However, I've added one cite where "a falafel" is clearly a sandwich in a pita, and this cite lists "a falafel" as a type of sandwich alongside shawarma. OTOH, this one speaking of "a falafel (sans the pita)", while it does imply that "a falafel" would normally refer to something with a pita, nonetheless also supports the idea that "a falafel" can refer to something without pita (say, an order of falafel, as I would've guessed). The 2003 Moskowitz also seems likely to be referring to a sandwich, although tracking down one more unambiguous citation would be ideal. - -sche (discuss) 15:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Okay. Perhaps it's like pasta, where we have one sense for the foodstuff and one for a meal made with it. Equinox ◑ 15:49, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

I guess it may depend on where you live. Here in New Zealand, where felafel stands and restaurants are quite common, I consider the use of "felafel" to mean "felafel souvlaki" part of common usage. Kiwima (talk) 20:49, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

While pasta has two uncountable senses, here we need two countable ones. It is not in question that the term has a countable sense as a fried ball (“serve falafels in pita with lettuce, tomatoes, and cucumber”). The question of this RfV is, has the term (in English) a second countable sense, namely as a sandwich, being specifically a pita wrap filled with fried balls?  --Lambiam 20:48, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

• On a hunch, I searched for google:"ordered two falafels". The Yelp link fourth from the top (in my results, anyway: https://www.yelp.com/biz/the-flying-falafel-san-francisco-3?start=480) includes a comment with the target string, where the text includes enough context to clarify that the "falafels" at issue are in fact the sandwiches. I suspect that other hits will include similar examples. HTH, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Better mention that I have eaten falafel but only very rarely, once or twice. It isn't a well-known food where I live. I challenged this because it looked like one of those sloppy definitions that get added in error and then cleaned and tidied over the years... it's probably fine. Thanks for the feedback. Equinox ◑ 22:29, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, I tracked down two more citations (now at Citations:falafel), one saying "want to try a falafel? It's a Greek sandwich." and another saying "It's a sandwich, [...] like a hoagie. Or a falafel or a club." Together with the "eating a falafel, bits of cucumber falling out of the pita's corners" citation in the entry (and the Mike Riccetti cite, although it uses italics), I think the pita-"sandwich"-y sense is cited. - -sche (discuss) 00:03, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 20:29, 1 January 2020 (UTC)

Plural?

Hello @Ser be etre shi. where did you get that information that falafel is a plural of felfel? Could you please show me an academic source stating that? I know that all Wikimedia projects have copied from each other, but it doesn't create a new wiki reality, which is untraceable outside of this wiki world. I speak Arabic and I know that falafel is not a plural of felfel (a singulative word) rarely singularized to felfela. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 15:58, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

To save others the effort, I have searched for, myself, Arabic sources and I found one that does not state any etymology, only listing Arabic roots, stating the word فلافل is related to فلفل, however, both are labeled "plural". --Mahmudmasri (talk) 16:44, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Well, first of all, thank you for caring about this word and the accuracy of its etymology. I wrongly assumed you had deleted that part for not much of a good reason, considering CaCaaCic is commonly a broken plural pattern of CVCCVC nouns like filfil/fulful. Even if Arabic falaafil isn't a plural of filfil today, it may have been one in the past. Compare the Spanish interjection ascuas 'ouch!; that's so strange' (not on Wiktionary yet, but the DRAE has it), which is etymologically a plural, but as an interjection it isn't really a plural anymore.

Anyway, I notice there seems to be a so far pretty mild edit controversy going on involving Fay Freak, who seems convinced by the usual plural pattern too. Personally I'll abstain from participating further.

I am interested in the countability of this word though. What's going on in this word?? I notice the Hans-Wehr 3rd edition marks filfil as collective, and gives filfila as its singulative, but the Hans-Wehr 4th edition abstains from any mark for filfil (is it singular or collective then? both?), and gives filfila as a possible singulative meaning 'peppercorn' specifically (as if the singulative was a different word, kind of). Equally strangely, then it gives:

فلفل أخضر (aḵḍar) green peppers, paprika; فلفل احمر (aḥmar) red pepper, cayenne pepper; فلفل أسود (aswad) black pepper (Piper nigrum)

thus translating the word with a plural first (green peppers) and then the English singular... I'd appreciate it if you could clarify what filfil is in Arabic in use. Basically, if I refer to a single sizeable red pepper, should I use filfila?--Ser be être 是^talk/stalk 17:23, 21 February 2022 (UTC)