Talk:อร่อย

Low tone to mid-tone

@Wyang, Iudexvivorum Hi. Is this common change from "à" to "a" predictable? Thai Wiktionary displays this word's pronunciation as [ʔä˩.rɔ(ː)j˨˩ ~ ʔä˧.rɔ(ː)j˨˩]. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 04:45, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Atitarev As I've said on my talk page, the low and high tones can be neutralised when they're in unstressed syllables. But I can't tell if such a tone change is common or uncommon. --iudexvivorum (talk) 05:56, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Iudexvivorum Thanks, I remember your answer. If neither stress, nor the neutralisation is found in online dictionaries, then, I guess we have to live with this. Benjawan Poomsan Becker dictionary actually also uses "à-rɔ̀i", same first syllable but no length indication on the second syllable. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:32, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Iudexvivorum, Wyang Sorry to be a pain. I'm also interested in the optional length of the second syllable. Do we need another phonemic for that?--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:06, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Atitarev As you wonder why the second syllable of 'อร่อย' is pronounced as a short vowel sound when it contains a long vowel, I tried to figure out and explain the rules behind this (which are not taught in school and are seemingly not contained in any book). But as I went on, I found it's hard to explain. I'm not a linguist; my ability to give a satisfactory linguistic explanation is low. All I can say for now is that:

(1) The Thai pronunciation system is full of exceptions. For example,

• 'ถอก' is pronounced 'tɔ̀ɔk' (long vowel), 'ถอง' is 'tɔ̌ɔng' (long), and 'ถอบ' is 'tɔ̀ɔp' (long). But 'ถอย' is 'tɔ̌i' (short).
• 'ถอย' is 'tɔ̌i' (short). But 'ทอย' is 'tɔɔi' (long), 'ลอย' is 'lɔɔi' (long), and 'น้อย is 'nɔ́ɔi' (long).
• 'ถ้ำ' is 'tâm' (short) and 'คล้ำ' is 'klám' (short). But 'น้ำ is 'náam' (long).
• 'อ่อน is 'ɔ̀ɔn' (long). But 'อ่อย' is 'ɔ̀i' (short).
• 'ไทม์ไลน์ contains short vowels but it is pronounced 'taam-laai' (long).

(2) The second syllable of 'อร่อย' is pronounced '-rɔ̀i' (short).

--iudexvivorum (talk) 10:04, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Iudexvivorum From what I can see, it's difficult and rather unpredictable, so nothing can be done to automate it. Perhaps a parameter to shorten vowels on selected syllables should be used - when it's known to be short, e.g. "|short=2"? @Wyang What do you think? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:19, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Iudexvivorum Not very comprehensive but here's a list of irregular pronunciations: irregular-words@thai-language.com --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:24, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

There is a vowel shortener sign: ็, which can be used in these cases, with or without additional tone marks. Wyang (talk) 12:33, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Iudexvivorum, Wyang Great! Can we use {{th-pron|อะ-หฺร็่อย}}, even if this respelling is not in dictionaries (but the translit and IPA look good)? I positioned the mai-tai-khu after mai-ek. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 13:00, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Wyang Máai-dtài-kúu may result in 'à-rɔ̀i' (อะ-หฺร็่อย). But please be noted that the word can never be respelt so. Spelling like this is in breach of grammatical rules, as máai-dtài-kúu is never used together with a tone mark. Furthermore, such a spelling is unreadable and incomprehensible in Thai. In conclusion, the respelling is wrong, though it results in correct translit and IPA. So I personally don't recommend this. But if you think fit, you may go ahead with it. --iudexvivorum (talk) 14:18, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Using the mai tai khu with a tone mark is, indeed, wrong! Wrong is wrong. That's why the respelling on Thai Wiktionary is "อะ-หฺร่อย", not "อะ-หฺร็่อย". Why don't you guys just mend the template to allow alternative pronunciations, transliterations, or whatever? That wouldn't take much effort, right? --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 16:27, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Seems to work well with อะ-หฺร็อย. The tone mark seems unneeded in this case. Need to find an example where the actual pronunciation can only be generated either only by allowing mai tai khu + tone mark, or by the implementation of additional functions. Wyang (talk) 20:36, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

If there is no right phonetic respelling to match the pronunciation, elements of manual override seem like the right thing to do. In this case, can we have two respellings? The second being อะ-หฺร็่อย or อะ-หฺร็อย? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:40, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

"หฺร็อย" changes the tone as the mai ek is removed, while "หฺร็่อย" is incorrect per above reasons. Similar cases will be found in ถ่อย, ถ่อม, กล่อม, กร่อย, แน่บ, แซ่บ, แว่บ, อ่อย, บ่อย, ต่อย, ด้อย, ร่อย, จ้อย, ค่อย, ต่อม, ต่อมตง, พ่อง, แม่ง, ส่อง, ล่อง, etc. --หมวดซาโต้ (talk) 01:12, 13 February 2016 (UTC)