Talk:후사를 부탁하다
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Sum of parts. Wyang (talk) 23:31, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
- They seem idiomatic and Lemming principle may be applicable. E.g. 후사를 부탁하다. Weak
keepfor now. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:43, 4 September 2014 (UTC)- But you can say 후사를 맡기다, etc. We should explain them in 후사. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks. I'm struggling a bit to understand the change in the meaning in both phrases. Besides, I think Lemming is a good principle. Even if 후사를 맡기다 were easy to understand from its parts, it's included in a reputable dictionary. The other phrase 달라고 부탁하다 is only included as a translation from English, though: 부탁하다%E2%80%8E 달라고 부탁하다 @Naver. I have added a usage note in 후사, just listing all translations from 후사를 부탁하다, in case it gets deleted. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:06, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- But you can say 후사를 맡기다, etc. We should explain them in 후사. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Also: 간곡히 부탁하다, 노래부르다, 아침을먹다, 사람이군다. Wyang (talk) 01:17, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- I'd say
keepfor 노래부르다, 아침을먹다, 사람이군다. They are solid words (no space), even if with predictable meanings. - Admittedly, verbs can be attached to nouns without a space and can also be written separately, can be broken up, e.g. 인터넷하다 (inteonethada) (I was going to create it) can be spelled as 인터넷을 하다 (inteoneseul hada) or 인터넷 하다 (inteonet hada). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:27, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- hada verbs/adjectives are different from these. The individual parts in these titles can be replaced with lots of others, eg. 밥을먹다 (incorrect spacing too), 녀석이군다, 남편이군다, 이름부르다, 값부르다. Wyang (talk) 01:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- To make it easier to process RFD's, maybe Wiktionary:Idioms_that_survived_RFD#Lemming_test should be applied for the correctly spelled verbs, even if there are variants with other basic verbs or spacing (only for those that have the same spelling and spacing in dictionaries, such as Naver od Daum)? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- I moved 사람이군다 to 군요. For the rest, it should be noted that spaces are really commonly omitted in Korean. Especially 아침을먹다 should be speedy deleted because it contains the particle 을 and therefore it cannot be a single word. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'm changing my vote to only keep entries, for which there is an entry in Naver dictionary. So, still keep for 후사를 부탁하다 (did "aftermath" change its meaning?), 간곡히 부탁하다 and 노래부르다. The verb 노래부르다 ("to sing a song") seems similar to 춤추다 ("to dance a dance"). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
- husareul butakhada is a literal translation of Chinese 託付後事, which is sum of parts (same as Japanese equivalent: 後事を託する). Furthermore, there are three arguments in favour of their deletion: 1) Korean-Korean dictionaries should be consulted when deciding whether something potentially sum of parts should be included or not. I have yet to find such a K-K dictionary that includes these items. 2) Spaces are commonly omitted in Korean, non-orthographically. Both north and south orthographic rules dictate that verbs formed from (its substantative noun + the cognate verb root) are considered lemmas and are written without spaces in between. Hence 춤추다, 꿈꾸다, 숨쉬다, 잠자다, 짐지다, 셈세다, 뜸뜨다, but 노래 부르다, 이름 부르다. 3) The individual components in these words can be replaced by many other words. Apart from 간곡히 부탁하다, one can also say 간곡히 타이르다, 간곡히 말리다, 간곡히 말하다, 간곡히 빌다; apart from 후사를 부탁하다, one can also say 후사를 맡기다, 일을 부탁하다. Wyang (talk) 23:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
- OK. You both presented good arguments and you both have good knowledge of Korean. I concede my failure and agree to the deletion. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
- To be clear, then, please strike (
cross out) your "Keep" vote(s). Cheers! bd2412 T 13:37, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
- To be clear, then, please strike (
- OK. You both presented good arguments and you both have good knowledge of Korean. I concede my failure and agree to the deletion. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:07, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
- husareul butakhada is a literal translation of Chinese 託付後事, which is sum of parts (same as Japanese equivalent: 後事を託する). Furthermore, there are three arguments in favour of their deletion: 1) Korean-Korean dictionaries should be consulted when deciding whether something potentially sum of parts should be included or not. I have yet to find such a K-K dictionary that includes these items. 2) Spaces are commonly omitted in Korean, non-orthographically. Both north and south orthographic rules dictate that verbs formed from (its substantative noun + the cognate verb root) are considered lemmas and are written without spaces in between. Hence 춤추다, 꿈꾸다, 숨쉬다, 잠자다, 짐지다, 셈세다, 뜸뜨다, but 노래 부르다, 이름 부르다. 3) The individual components in these words can be replaced by many other words. Apart from 간곡히 부탁하다, one can also say 간곡히 타이르다, 간곡히 말리다, 간곡히 말하다, 간곡히 빌다; apart from 후사를 부탁하다, one can also say 후사를 맡기다, 일을 부탁하다. Wyang (talk) 23:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'm changing my vote to only keep entries, for which there is an entry in Naver dictionary. So, still keep for 후사를 부탁하다 (did "aftermath" change its meaning?), 간곡히 부탁하다 and 노래부르다. The verb 노래부르다 ("to sing a song") seems similar to 춤추다 ("to dance a dance"). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:58, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
- I moved 사람이군다 to 군요. For the rest, it should be noted that spaces are really commonly omitted in Korean. Especially 아침을먹다 should be speedy deleted because it contains the particle 을 and therefore it cannot be a single word. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:27, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
- To make it easier to process RFD's, maybe Wiktionary:Idioms_that_survived_RFD#Lemming_test should be applied for the correctly spelled verbs, even if there are variants with other basic verbs or spacing (only for those that have the same spelling and spacing in dictionaries, such as Naver od Daum)? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- hada verbs/adjectives are different from these. The individual parts in these titles can be replaced with lots of others, eg. 밥을먹다 (incorrect spacing too), 녀석이군다, 남편이군다, 이름부르다, 값부르다. Wyang (talk) 01:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
- Keep, since from looking at 후사를 부탁하다, the sum of parts claim is incomprehensible to me: comparing the etymology "From 후사 (hosa), aftermath + 를 (reul), object suffix + 부탁하다 (butak-hada), request" with the definitions given does not yield sum of partness. Part of the problem is that 후사를 (the 1st component of the allegged sum of parts) is now a redlink. This nomination should take care to explain the sum of parts claim, on a per entry basis. I might think that I should better not vote, since I speak no Korean, but I think the nomination should provide an explanation detailed enough to make the sum of parts claim at least plausible to those who speak no Korean, especially since there are not Koreans around to weigh in instead of non-Korean speakers. Furthermore, "and others" appearing in the heading of the nomination is not an acceptable RFD nomination, IMHO. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:15, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
- Since 를 is a particle, we don’t have an entry for 후사를. That is a basic knowledge of Korean. If you know Japanese, you can consider it to be exactly like を. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- If 후사를 부탁하다 were kept, then the header would need to change to 후사를 부탁하다. @TAKASUGI Shinji Could you explain Polansky's other concern about the meaning of 후사를 부탁하다, how it means what it means from its parts? I don't understand it too. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:04, 24 September 2014 (UTC)
- Since 를 is a particle, we don’t have an entry for 후사를. That is a basic knowledge of Korean. If you know Japanese, you can consider it to be exactly like を. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:54, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Deleted per consensus among Korean editors. Wyang (talk) 09:17, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- There are no native Korean speakers in this discussion. And consensus is not being sought among select group of editors. You have failed to address my concerns: 후사를 부탁하다 does not look like sum of parts from its etymology, and no one has explained why it should be so considered. The discussion in this thread fails standards of transparency, clarity and rationality. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:10, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
- Dan, Shinji has added definitions to 후사 - "matter from now on, matter after that" and provided a usage example to 부탁하다 - 후사를 부탁해요 - "I’ll leave the matter to you.". I agree that some terms not on the current RFD should be considered separately, e.g. 노래부르다 "to sing/chant a song". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:38, 30 September 2014 (UTC)