Talk:B.

RFD 2014

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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B.

Being a part of an abbreviation doesn't constitute being an abbreviation. "B." is never used alone to mean "Bachelor(s)". --WikiTiki89 18:21, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

• Keep; whether it is ever used alone or not, it does have this meaning, much like a prefix. If someone was a college graduate and you didn't know what their degree was in, you would know that it was a "B." something. Moreover, if a school develops a new degree program, it would be a "B." plus whatever the new component abbreviates to. bd2412 T 19:04, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
  • But it's not a prefix. A prefix can be attached to any word meeting some certain set of criteria. "B." is not attached to things, but is a product of abbreviating names of degrees. For example, "Bachelor of the Arts" is abbreviated "BA" or "B.A.". You cannot say that "BA/B.A." is formed by combining "B." and "A.". --WikiTiki89 19:21, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Delete unless standalone use can be found. Now that standalone usage has been found, see my vote below. - -sche (discuss) 21:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC) X being part of a word or abbreviation is, as Wikitiki correctly observes, very different from X being itself a word or abbreviation.
Points to the first person to POINTily add to B. other senses it is 'missing', including "bank" (as in "E.C.B." et al), "before" (as in "B.C.E.", "B.C."), "bull" (as in "B.S." and a perhaps uncommon but probably attested abbreviation of "bullcrap" as "B.C."), "business" (as in two senses of "D.B.A."), "base" (as in other senses of "D.B.A."), etc. Also points to whoever adds to "b" the many objectively accurate definitions its missing, such as "the second letter of many words" (as in "abbreviation", "absurd" and "ibuprofen").
Compare Talk:sug-. - -sche (discuss) 20:04, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

If it is kept due to a standalone case being found I would still request that the ===Derived terms=== be removed (or changed to ===Related terms===) because these terms are not "derived" from B.. --WikiTiki89 20:18, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

This Analytical Sciences article, for example, describes subjects as having received a "B. of" something without the something being part of the abbreviation. Someone who didn't know what the "B." stood for in that context would need to consult a dictionary that had an entry for B. to define it. As for sug- and company, they were about hypothetical prefixes that were not actually used in English. "B." meaning "Bachelor's" can be distinguished from any number of other abbreviations including "B." because if you heard that someone earned a "B." anything you would know immediately that it was some kind of Bachelor's degree. bd2412 T 20:28, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

That's a different story. "B. of Science" for example is a common abbreviation of "Bachelor of Science". And that might merit having an entry for B. of, but I'm undecided on that and would have to think some more. --WikiTiki89 20:40, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

If "B." has meaning by itself, isn't "B. of" SOP? In any case, here is an article that omits the "of", stating that the subject "received a B. Engineering Physics from the University of Saskatchewan in 1984". I would also disagree that specific combinations (B.A., B.Ed.) are not derived terms. Terms can be derived from whole components (e.g. fire fighter). bd2412 T 20:46, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but that's a big if. If you can show that B. has meaning by itself, then we can keep it. --WikiTiki89 20:49, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how phrases like "B. of (Science|Arts|whatever)" "might merit having an entry for B. of". The idiomaticity in such phrases is either in each full phrase (B. of Science) or in B.. (Who would look at "B. of Science" and think "I don't know what this means, I should look up only the "B of" portion"?) - -sche (discuss) 21:12, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

That would be one of the arguments against it. Like I said, I'm undecided. --WikiTiki89 21:16, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Someone reading the cited article would see that some subjects have a "B." of Science while others have a "B." of Engineering. They would correctly conclude that the "B." has the same meaning for both, and want to look up "B." itself to see what it means. I find it highly doubtful that the reader in that situation would look up "B. of", or that the reader would feel the need to put in one of the multiple examples of things that the B. is of. bd2412 T 21:24, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

After doing some thinking, I agree with what you just said and we should have the entry for B. as used in phrases such as "B. or Science". However, abbreviations such as BS and B.S. are not derived from it and should not be listed in the derived terms section. --WikiTiki89 21:32, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I am ambivalent about it, but see no great difference between listing them as "related" terms or "derived" terms, so I have no objection. bd2412 T 21:49, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

There is a difference in terms of this RFD. If they are not derived terms, then they are not the reason the term is kept. --WikiTiki89 01:16, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, we know that whenever a new Bachelor's degree is devised, it will be called a "B." something (for example, the B.Comp.Sci. is a relatively recent invention). It seems to me that such later inventions, at least, are derived from "B." bd2412 T 16:03, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly what I'm disagreeing with. "B.Comp.Sci." is not "B." + "Comp.Sci.", but an abbreviation of "Bachelor of Computer Science". The degree is created first, then the abbreviation. --WikiTiki89 23:58, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

They don't sit around asking, "should we call this a 'Bach.Comp.Sci'? A 'Ba.Comp.Sci.'? A 'Br.Comp.Sci.'?" They incorporate the established "B." and figure out how to abbreviate the rest. bd2412 T 05:19, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Nevertheless, you can't create "B.Comp.Sci." unless "Bachelor of Computer Science" already exists. --WikiTiki89 05:36, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't know that you can necessarily create "B.Comp.Sci." unless "B." already exists, either. bd2412 T 04:25, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Why not? --WikiTiki89 04:38, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Absent the already existing "B.", why would you abbreviate it that way, and not some other way? bd2412 T 04:47, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Well you could abbreviate it as "Q.Comp.Sci." but people would be less likely to understand it. But I suppose you meant something like "Bach.Comp.Sci.", in which case it's just longer than it needs to be; abbreviations try to be as short as possible. --WikiTiki89 05:19, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Keep on the basis of the 'standalone' uses like "B. of Science" that have been found to exist in the literature. - -sche (discuss) 21:54, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Keep. You don't really see Inc. or Ltd. alone either, do you? Equinox ◑ 13:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

That's not what was meant by alone. By the definition of alone that we have determined to be appropriate for this case, Inc. and Ltd. are almost always used alone. --WikiTiki89 14:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

• For the record: I am in favor of keeping the sense of "B." used in "B. of Computer Science" or "B. of Comp. Sci.", but I am not in favor of keeping the sense I originally RFD'd, which is the one in "B.A.", "B.S.", and "B.Comp.Sci.". Therefore, I am not withdrawing the nomination. --WikiTiki89 14:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
  • At this point, then you are maintaining an RfD nomination solely to remove "B.A." and "B.S." from the list of derived terms? Since we already know that it can be said that someone "has a B. Engineering", how would this change or affect the existing definition at all? bd2412 T 14:33, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
    • Not Just "B.A." and "B.S.", but everything on that is currently on that list. "B. Engineering" changes nothing with regard to "B.A.". --WikiTiki89 14:52, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
      • Still, if you agree that the definition for "B." should exist, then what have an RfD? We have never used RfD as a venue to change a "derived terms" header to a "related terms" header. bd2412 T 16:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
        • First of all, because that wasn't my original reason for RFDing it. Secondly, I still disagree with the definition as it stands, particularly the parenthetical comment "usually followed by an abbreviation indicating the specific discipline". Lastly, I think it is important to be clear about this distinction because this RFD may cited as a precedent in other RFDs. --WikiTiki89 16:29, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
          • Very well, then I continue to maintain that so long as there is an original usage of "B." something to indicate a certain kind of Bachelor's degree, all later degree abbreviations reading "B." something are in part derived terms of "B.". bd2412 T 17:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

A couple of lemmings: Chambers and Merriam-Webster both list B as an abbreviation for bachelor. Not checked others. Equinox ◑ 14:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Also, The New Penguin Dictionary of Abbreviations (2000) lists "Bachelor" (capitalised) as one of the meanings of "B" (without a period). — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:53, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

• Keep. This is now tagged as rfd-sense for the sole sense: "Bachelors degree (usually followed by an abbreviation indicating the specific discipline)." --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:43, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there any reason to keep this open any longer? bd2412 T 21:45, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Kept.​—msh210℠ (talk) 07:28, 3 August 2014 (UTC)