Talk:born on the Fourth of July

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process.

Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.

---

born on the Fourth of July

Given the definition, I accept the status of idiom, but I've never seen this before... anywhere. Anyone else? — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 18:46, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

This has several issues. As much as I like and agree with the example sentence about Sean Hannity, it's hardly appropriate for a neutral dictionary. Also, define American spirit. As an immigrant who's lived here many years, I'm familiar with the sentiment but have a hard time giving a tangible definition. Globish 19:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

It's fine for a neutral dictionary. The definition itself is neutral, describing something that isn't neutral. But like I said, I've never seen the phrase anywhere. American spirit could just be defined as patriotism, of an American. etc. Something like that. — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 22:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I have added a more neutrally worded alternative sense and made the tag rfv-sense. Feel free to insert an rfv-sense for the added sense if it seems objectionable. I will also add the obviously appropriate "US" context. DCDuring 22:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

No, individuals shouldn't be mentioned in example sentences, nor definitions. This is a common set-phrase resulting from the song (but not necessarily the book or movie.) With the new definition, the original one given is redundant and should probably just be removed. --Connel MacKenzie 20:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Not mentioning individuals in example sentences (not quotations) seems like a great guideline or even policy. Is it in any written guideline or policy or does it follow from one ? DCDuring 23:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Still not seeing actual citations for this - all the book hits I've seen have been references to people who actually happened to be born on July 4. bd2412 T 04:41, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

added two cites, it is hard to find them because of all the noise, but I have heard it used plenty. rfv passed. - [The]DaveRoss 21:17, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

RFV discussion: June 2022–February 2023

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.

---

born on the Fourth of July

born on the 4th of July

Did a Google Books search for "was born on the fourth of July" and "was born on the 4th of July" and did not see any idiomatic uses. — Sgconlaw (talk) 17:51, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree it is hard to find idiomatic usage of this phrase.

This passed RfV once before, back in 2007. I improved the formatting of the two citations on Citations:born on the Fourth of July. Together with the citation present on the main entry, that brings the count to three. However, Ron Kovic literally was born on July 4, so I don't think that citation demonstrates clearly idiomatic use, even if he is using that happenstance as a way to brand himself as being a patriot.

I can find some stuff like this poem/song, but maybe we're supposed to interpret that as a fictional character who was literally born on July 4. I'd be most convinced by a citation that unambiguously referred to someone who was not literally born on the date but was a patriotic American. That might be too much to ask for, though. 70.172.194.25 17:30, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I think the Kovic quotation has to be discarded; he was, as you point out, actually born on 4 July. The 2006 quotation you added to the citations page seems fine, and while I'm doubtful about the 1977 song I suppose it can be given the benefit of the doubt. We still need at least one more unambiguous quotation. — Sgconlaw (talk) 18:31, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

It seems silly to throw out the Kovic quote, if he was born on literally any other date it wouldn't have made any sense in the quote. "I have a right to be here, I fought for that right and I was born on August 9th." It doesn't matter, because there is plenty of other usage, including the titles of movies, books, etc. which are what make it hard to find other usage. - TheDaveRoss 13:28, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

@TheDaveRoss: none of the usages in titles, etc., including the title of Kovic's book, clearly show the alleged meaning "Demonstratively patriotic about the United States". — Sgconlaw (talk) 13:45, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I would argue that they all do, which is the only reason they were chosen. Again, no other comparable phrase makes sense. You don't make a movie about a paralyzed veteran who has to defend his patriotism while opposing a war "Born on March 22nd". They are not in the form "I was born on the Fourth of July, by which I mean I am demonstratively patriotic about the USA", but thankfully most things people write are not that awful. - TheDaveRoss 13:50, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

I have to agree with Sgconlaw. I don't think it provides strong evidence of idiomatic usage because the literal meaning obtains, and he would not have used the phrase if it didn't. 70.172.194.25 18:57, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• Passed again. - TheDaveRoss 13:27, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

  @TheDaveRoss: not sure why this is a pass. I see two votes in favour of deletion (70.172.194.25 and myself) and only one (yours) in favour of retention, which means two-thirds of the discussants favour deletion… — Sgconlaw (talk) 20:05, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Sgconlaw RFV is not voting, it is seeking evidence of use. If you don't think the provided cites are sufficient, I guess that is a matter for RFD. - TheDaveRoss 20:12, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  @TheDaveRoss: I don’t think the facts that the cites are insufficient means that this is a matter for RFD. If there aren’t sufficient qualifying citations, the term fails verification and that is an RFV matter. At the moment, two-thirds of discussants regard the citations as insufficient. — Sgconlaw (talk) 20:17, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  The objection raised is that "usage in titles, etc." are not acceptable. Well, there are three citations which are not titles. I disagree with your assessment, we accept usage in the form of titles all of the time, but still, the CFI criteria are met even if the quotes you object to are excluded. - TheDaveRoss 21:13, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  @TheDaveRoss: my objection is that I only see two quotations indicating that the phrase has the idiomatic sense "Demonstratively patriotic about the United States": the 2006 quotation on the citations page and the 1977 Paxton quotation on the entry page (the latter is actually unclear, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt). I don't think the 1904 or 1977 Kovic quotations on the citations page qualify. Yes, they use the phrase "born on the Fourth of July" but it's not clear that the phrase was intended to mean "demonstratively patriotic about the United States" in those quotations; it could simply be a literal use. — Sgconlaw (talk) 21:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don't think we want either RfVers or citation providers to be the ones closing out RfVs. DCDuring (talk) 22:35, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  I think that is reasonable for about 3 months, then anyone who wants to play janitor gets to. The amount that I care about this entry has far been exceeded, even though the arguments against the cites are patently wrong we can delete the entry and move on with the project.

  Failed. - TheDaveRoss 23:10, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  I think it passes and have restored it. DCDuring (talk) 23:29, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  I notice that "literally born on the Fourth of July" returns many hits, implying the existence of figurative use. Ioaxxere (talk) 00:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don't trust that argument. If you replace the Fourth of July with "Halloween", "Christmas", or "Valentine's Day", the number of Google hits is within an order of magnitude. Is "born on Halloween" idiomatic? Maybe, but I'd want to see actual evidence of that. Note that "literally" is often just used as an intensifier nowadays. 98.170.164.88 01:16, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  I could not recreate your results. Searching those holidays on Google Books/News returns practically nothing (a few social media posts on the main search, probably using the intensifier), while the Fourth of July does yield several works, including several books from the 80s and 90s which seem unlikely to be using literally in the colloquial sense, although it's hard to confirm. Ioaxxere (talk) 15:26, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  For the record, I was using plain Google. The hits may not technically be durably archived, but since this is a heuristic argument and not a direct search for quotations anyway, I don't see that as too important. I see 520 Google hits for "literally born on Halloween", 1,020 for "literally born on the Fourth of July", and 1,270 for "literally born on Christmas".

  If we restrict the search to Google Books, there are nine uses of "literally born on the Fourth of July", excluding one obvious reprint; of these, four are referring to Calvin Coolidge and three (plus the reprint) are referring to Ron Kovic, mentioned above. I guess I just don't see this as very convincing. 98.170.164.88 23:37, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

  I don’t think this sort of argument from inference is permitted for CFI purposes. We need actual, unambiguous quotes in the entry. — Sgconlaw (talk) 04:51, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  OK, OK, I deserve it, this is some excellent trolling you guys. - TheDaveRoss 01:09, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

  As I've been accused of trolling, I don't think I can close this either. DCDuring (talk) 01:14, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

• There are no citations for born on the 4th of July. I didn't find any at Google Books search for '"born on the 4th of July" -"born on the fourth of July"'. I don't think purported alternative forms get a free pass. DCDuring (talk) 22:25, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

  It looks a bit borderline but probably just enough to pass it. There’s a song by Wheatus with this phrase in the lyrics and if it’s sung by the lead singer then he apparently wasn’t actually born on July 4th:-[1] and [2]. --Overlordnat1 (talk) 03:18, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  How clear is it that this song is even using "born [...] on the fourth of July" to mean "Demonstratively patriotic about the United States"? The song doesn't really include anything else about American patriotism from which we could infer that. Also, there's the fact that there's an ellipsis in the middle of the phrase, but I don't know how much that really matters. 98.170.164.88 04:27, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  The song lyrics seem to be talking about being macho like a patriotic soldier but I agree it’s not entirely clear. ‘Born on the 4th of July’ seems to be used at least as often in song lyrics in reference to being wild, like an exploding firework set off during Independence Day celebrations, but if we created that sense it probably wouldn’t be entirely unambiguous either. Overlordnat1 (talk) 09:52, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

  There's of course the grandaddy of them all, the chorus from The Yankee Doodle Boy, written by George M. Cohan in 1904:

I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy,

A Yankee Doodle, do or die;

A real live nephew of my Uncle Sam,

Born on the Fourth of July.

The composer was (probably) born on the 4th of July, but the song isn't about him. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:10, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, many of the other uses are probably references to this. "Yankee Doodle Boy" is currently in the etymology section and on the citations page. The references to the song do exist, but use as an idiom (for people not literally born on the day) is pretty hard to find. As a heuristic counter to Ioaxxere's argument above, you'd think that "like he was born on the Fourth of July" would have Google hits if "born on the Fourth of July" was used as a figure of speech. But apparently the only hits for that phrase on the entire Web is the usage example we give on our entry, and other websites that mirror Wiktionary. If you change the pronoun to "she", there's one hit that actually looks like it may be promising. But it's referring to a woman who was literally singing the Cohan song, so it's not really strong evidence for broader use of the idiom. If people think this meets CFI, fair enough, I just wish we had better evidence for that. 98.170.164.88 04:27, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

But does that line in the song unambiguously mean “Demonstratively patriotic about the United States”? I don’t know; we seem to be struggling to find suitable quotations. — Sgconlaw (talk) 04:46, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

US TV programmers seem to believe that it means that, given that the movie Yankee Doodle Dandy is principally shown around the Fourth of July. DCDuring (talk) 14:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

There is no doubt that the song is about patriotism, but is the specific phrase supposed to mean "patriotic"? It's possible that it was just meant to refer to being born on Independence Day, which would still be indirectly associated with patriotism, but where the phrase is not used as a synonym for "patriotic".

There's a common phenomenon where an author uses a phrase in a literal way, and then later references to the quote use it in a figurative way. For example, in the New Testament the phrase cast the first stone is used literally, but it later gained a closely related figurative sense based on the Bible story. I think it would be wrong to claim that we should retroactively read the verse of John as using the idiom.

In this particular case, it seems pretty difficult to find examples where "born on the Fourth of July" unambiguously means "patriotic". 98.170.164.88 16:29, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Have you seen the movie? DCDuring (talk) 19:49, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

So this song, characterized in its WP article as "a patriotic song", first appearing in a 1904 musical characterized as "patriotic" in its WP article, more famously appearing in the wartime (1942) American film, for the premiere of which "[t]ickets were available only to those who bought war bonds is simply talking about a biographical detail of George M. Cohan, the author of the song, said to be born on July 4 (actually July 3), as well as Over There (probably just a geography lesson about the location of France and Belgium for Americans notoriously uninformed about world geography) and You're a Grand Old Flag (probably a simple description of the US flag for the benefit of soldiers and schoolchildren).

Right. DCDuring (talk) 20:15, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

For the record, my argument against counting this quotation was never that the song is about Cohan himself, as the other biographical details don't match (e.g., his mother's name was Helen/Nellie, not Ann Maria). It's possible that his real-life birthday did influence Cohan's choice of language, of course. But more to the point, I don't think it's 100% clear that you can replace "born on the Fourth of July" with "patriotic" in the song lyrics and (ignoring prosody) maintain the original meaning. That's one possible interpretation. But just because the theme of the song is patriotism, does not imply that everything in the song has to denotationally mean "patriotic". It could alternatively be an autobiographical statement made by the character Johnny Jones, with a literal meaning as well as a connotation of patriotism, much like Ron Kovic's usage of the term.

At this point though, I don't really care much; if others think this should pass, then I won't complain. I just wish we had three completely unambiguous uses, because it's really hard to find any. 98.170.164.88 02:41, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

As movement from literal to figurative use is a principal means by which words come to have new meanings, your argument would apply to almost all polysemic terms. DCDuring (talk) 21:32, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

No one disputes that the song as a whole is patriotic, but it isn’t a good illustration that “born on the Fourth of July” has the specific idiomatic sense which our entry claims. If it did have such a clear sense you’d think there would be numerous attesting quotations. Yet here we are, trying to wring meanings from ambiguous song lyrics. I think this fails verification. — Sgconlaw (talk) 12:14, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Why is the song not an illustration of the context of the phrase that indicates indisputably that the phrase itself is about US patriotism? I don't recall this evaluative rubric being applied with such rigor to the determination of meaning from context for other phrases. DCDuring (talk) 14:18, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

@DCDuring: Should we then have an entry for real live nephew of one’s Uncle Sam as a term meaning “demonstratively patriotic about the United States”? All I’m seeing is the phrase born on the Fourth of July is used in patriotic contexts (book titles, song lyrics) but does not conclusively mean what is claimed in the entry. If there are such uses then by all means dig them up. But I’m not seeing them. — Sgconlaw (talk) 05:02, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

If it were attestable, yes.

So, what does the expression mean when not literal? DCDuring (talk) 13:34, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

Since we're having trouble finding non-SOP quotations, I'll close this as RFV Failed. Ioaxxere (talk) 18:04, 9 February 2023 (UTC)