Talk:date rape

RFV discussion: December 2013–July 2014

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date rape

Rfv-sense for the sense, "Rape committed with the use of a sedative or memory-inhibiting drug". I do not believe that the term is so broadly construed as to apply to any such act, even if it occurs between complete strangers in a non-social setting (for example, if the perpetrator were to break into a random house and force a complete stranger in that house to imbibe such a drug). bd2412 T 17:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I agree that "if the perpetrator were to break into a random house and force a complete stranger in that house to imbibe such a drug", that would not be considered date rape. Perhaps the words "in a social setting" should be added to the definition. --WikiTiki89 17:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it is worthwhile to bother trying to find citations to support the definition's arguable inclusion of BD's hypothetical. But I would expect that folks would use date rape when hook-up rape might more precisely fit the situation. Date is fairly elastic. It is euphemistically (and legalistically) used (as is party) about short-term sex-for-money encounters. DCDuring TALK 18:29, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

At least that's how it's done in the movies. I do not have any direct experience and my friends have the same story. DCDuring TALK 18:33, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Our definitions should be precise enough to avoid sweeping in scenarios not actually covered by a term. Of course, the rape itself is generally not committed in the social setting, but the setting is used as a cover for the drugging. How about, "Rape committed by a perpetrator first secretly administering a sedative or memory-inhibiting drug to the victim, under cover of a social setting"? bd2412 T 18:35, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

How about we trim it down a bit to: "Rape committed by administering a sedative or memory-inhibiting drug under the cover of a social setting"? --WikiTiki89 18:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I would keep "secretly" (or make it "surreptitiously", which is such a great and sneaky sounding word). Otherwise, I agree. bd2412 T 18:45, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

But if it weren't done secretly, wouldn't it still be a date rape? --WikiTiki89 18:49, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

If a guy walks into a bar and in full view of his target drops some pills or powder into her drink, and she goes ahead and drinks it with full knowledge that the drink has been drugged, I would consider that to constitute consent to whatever effect the drug has on the imbiber, and whatever activity follows from that effect. Outside of some weird fantasy role-play type situation, "rape" requires a lack of consent. I suppose a drug could be administered in a way that was secret to the victim, but not to others (i.e., the guy at a party telling his friends, "look what I'm doing", and then spiking the drink of an unaware victim). bd2412 T 18:59, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Consent to a drug does not imply consent to sex. --WikiTiki89 19:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

If I were representing a client accused under these facts, I would argue that consent to imbibe a drug offered by a complete stranger in a bar implied consent to whatever acts could reasonably be foreseen to occur under the influence of the drug. I would win that case, too. bd2412 T 19:18, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it. Even real consent given while intentionally intoxicated can be insufficient for legal consent. Anyway, this is not a court but a dictionary; we don't debate laws, but terminology. Also, the word "rape" in the definition implies lack of consent. --WikiTiki89 19:27, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

This being an RfV, are there citations that demonstrate that the phrase is so used where the drugging is done with the victim's knowledge? The Urban Dictionary reference you provided in the other discussion refers to a secret drugging. bd2412 T 19:47, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

For bd2412, couldn't it hypothetically mean raping the fruit a date? I'm not saying any person who has ever existed would interpret it that way, just that it's hypothetically possible. Mglovesfun (talk) 19:20, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Since this is an RfV, not an RfD, ther hypothetical meanings are irrelevant to the definition for which verification is sought. If this were an RfD for sense 1, it would be apparent from the context that the relevant sense of "rape" is unlikely to apply to an inanimate object. However, I would certainly avoid your tendency to assume that the meanings of phrases that have been culturally ingrained in you are therefore obvious to everyone else, regardless of where they are from or what language they speak. bd2412 T 19:42, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't claiming any relevance. I'm saying we shouldn't make up hypothetical definitions and then say the word doesn't mean this. For every word, there are literally infinite things it doesn't mean. Why try to make lists of them? It's madness. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:17, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

As I said, our definitions should be precise enough to avoid sweeping in a lot of things that the word doesn't mean. We could define fire engine as "a thing that fights fires", but although that is technically correct, our definition is far more precise. I'm not trying to say what the thing isn't; I'm trying to define it so that it is clear what it is. bd2412 T 20:25, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Date rape is not a legal term. Rape is. The more one tries to make date rape legalistically precise, the more it seems that date rape = date + rape. Date rape seems to have ambiguity with respect to both components of its meaning. DCDuring TALK 20:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Ah, yes, this is true. However, this gets us back to the question of what meanings are verifiable in citations showing how the word is used. I believe that the word is generally used to refer to an act following drugging done secretly. bd2412 T 20:26, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Probably, but there is a great haze of ambiguity (which has led to the usage of terms like gray rape). Some write that alcohol is the most common date-rape drug. Usually nowadays at least the first doses of alcohol are self-administered or knowingly accepted. DCDuring TALK 21:03, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

In any event date-rape drug seems to be easily citable as being taken voluntarily:

It seems to me that date rape doesn't necessarily require that the rapist deliver a drug secretly or at all or even that there be a drug of any kind involved. It seems to mean rape by a rapist with whom the victim was in a consensual social relationship (possibly very short term). DCDuring TALK 21:21, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

Sense one of date rape says exactly that. However, there is apparently a second sense which does not involve the "consensual social relationship", but instead involves secret drugging. Why is it called "date rape" even though there is nothing like a "date" involved? Because people started using the drug to carry out rape in the context of a "consensual social relationship", and the drug came to be known as the "date rape drug", with all rapes using the drug thereafter coming to be known as "date rape" via back-formation. Notably, your citations indicate that the substance itself is still known as "date-rape drug" even if it is used under circumstances that do not involve "rape" at all. bd2412 T 21:31, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

You are assuming that it is back-formation, but I disagree. I think it is more likely that "date rape" first acquired the drug connotation, and then people started using "date rape drugs" to refer to the drugs used that form of "date rape". --WikiTiki89 21:37, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

That would not be a back-formation.

In Google News, the first usage of date rape that is accurately dated is 1983; the first for date rape drug is 1996. In Books, 1978 and 1996. DCDuring TALK 22:43, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

But was it used in our drug-related sense before "date rape drug"? --WikiTiki89 23:01, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

@Wikitiki: I haven't looked at that.

The citations in [[date rape]] show that date rape has not been limited to traditional dates. Date may even be a term to disguise the actual situation: hookups following from group hangouts. Date rape is apparently a term used to allow cross-generational discussion.

Date rape drugs can be:

1. administered secretly or not
2. self-administered or not
3. associated or not with actual subsequent rape or intent to commit rape
4. associated with traditional dates or with hookups, with are included by some in an elastic definition of date, or not
5. a chemically manufactured pharmaceutical agent in the form of pill or powder, an alcoholic beverage, or a natural product.

I do not think that we want to have enough definitions to cover all sensible combinations of these possibilities, nor can we readily use attestation to tease apart which combinations occurred first.

It seems to me that the usage has most commonly been "date rape" drug (with the double quotes) in its first use in the written material I have looked at at Google. This suggests that the readers are not expected to know or care about the chemistry, but to care that the drugs facilitate "date rape", which itself may be a novel concept (and a misnomer given that dates have been often superseded by hookups). "Date rape" is a hot-button to girls and the relatives of girls.

The two medical dictionaries that are the only OneLook references that have entries for date rape drug define it as only Rohypnol/rohypnol (rufie). If that is accurate, then that radical restriction would seem to make a non-SoP definition, though it does not cover all the usage. DCDuring TALK 23:41, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

I have reworked both definitions. The first definition had not been RFVed, but was tortuously worded; I tried to simplify/clarify it. I modified the second definition to include all (and only) the elements mention above which I thought were part of the meaning of the word. - -sche (discuss) 21:31, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

RFV-passed; the basic sense is attested and has been cited. Further tweaking of the definition can be discussed in the Tea Room and/or talk page. - -sche (discuss) 17:39, 8 July 2014 (UTC)