Talk:in vain

comparative and superlative

Do these forms actually exist? I couldn't imagine anyone using "more in vain" or "most in vain" as suggested in the entry... Demonic Duck 20:37, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

At least hypothetically. — Mother No 1: I tried so hard to bring my son up right, but it was all in vain. — Mother No. 2: You think you got it bad? I spent my life raising three ungrateful daughters, and that was even more in vain!

Search Google Books, I found over 3,000 hits in printed works for "more in vain," about 600 for "most in vain". —Stephen ^(Talk) 21:09, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

RFV discussion: January 2021

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in vain

Rfv-sense "In a disrespectful manner, especially when concerning religion." outside of take someone's name in vain.__Gamren (talk) 13:55, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Would we want to delete the sense even if it were not so attested? I don't think so. DCDuring (talk) 17:42, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Why would we keep it in that case? Currently it gives the impression that *We wrote to him in vain can mean "We wrote to him disrespectfully". If it's only used in certain ways, the entry needs to be changed to reflect that. And if it's only ever used in one specific verb, which seems to be the case, then it's not a lemma at all, and should, if kept at all, be converted to an {{only in}}.__Gamren (talk) 18:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

cited. I added uses with a variety of verbs, such as to speak in vain, to promise in vain, etc. Kiwima (talk) 20:11, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Kiwima 2, 3, 6 appear to be sense one.

1. take someone's name in vain
2. He tells her that her words won't amount to anything, she should trust God, which will bring results.
3. The regime promises to provide satisfaction, but will fail to do so.
4. take someone's name in vain
5. minor variant of take someone's name in vain
6. He never wastes his words (this is pleonastic).
7. I can't access this, but I'm guessing this is also sense 1.

__Gamren (talk) 20:35, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

We might want to keep it because some people might be accustomed to breaking expressions into component parts for purposes of looking meanings up in a dictionary. I usually do, out of interest in whether a given component might be more general in application than my direct experience suggests. DCDuring (talk) 20:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok, 2 may be sense 1, but 3 is definitely this sense. The regime makes empty promises: it promises in vain. This does not mean that it is making promises without success, but rather that it is making promises which it does not mean. Similarly with 6: "he never wasted word in vain" does not mean he never wasted a word without success, but rather that he never spoke in a manner that he did not mean. 7 is again the same: "I know you won't engage your word in vain", means I trust you to mean what you say. Kiwima (talk) 22:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Kiwima Oh, I see you've expanded the definition: "without honoring the proper meaning". This wording is very unclear to me. Is it supposed to be synonymous to "in bad faith" or "insincerely"? This seems distinct from the original sense, "disrespectfully".__Gamren (talk) 23:23, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@Gamren: Not really. When one "uses the Lord's name in vain", one calls on the Lord without meaning it, but instead using it as an empty swear word. Kiwima (talk) 23:38, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Or one who does so appeals to God as a witness in a false swearing, as when a co-conspirator who “had sworn by God that he knew nothing of any plot”^[1] makes a full confession two days later. The perjurer implies the true meaning, but is not honest. Evidence that the term is (also) used in this sense: [2], [3], [4].  --Lambiam 15:59, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 00:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)