Talk:vái

Etymology

@PhanAnh123: Ferlus lists Vietnamese viá [sic] (i.e. vía) as the Vietnamese descendant of Proto-Vietic *r-vaːjʔ, and Shorto doesn't mention the PMK term has Vietic descendants. Would you mind sharing any source on this? To me, it seems this is more likely an uncomplicated non-Sino-Vietnamese reading of bái (拜), as proposed by Vu (2010). Also compare Thai ไหว้ (wâai). Wyang (talk) 02:30, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Vía could be possible, but the vowel just doesn't fit (unless some kind of metathesis happen in just this one word), compare Muong wãi. To me, it's more like a fusion term with Mon-Khmer phonetic and Chinese meaning.PhanAnh123 (talk) 04:32, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

@PhanAnh123: In fact, I think vowel metathesis is very likely. There are several factors that make it so:

1. The semantics of vái does not match PV, while vía matches well. Vía is essentially identical in meaning to Proto-Vietic *r-vaːjʔ and its descendants, while vái is identical to bái and Chinese 拜. The Northern and Central dialects also use bái to mean vái.
2. If not a Vietnamese loan, Thổ [Làng Lỡ] similarly has /via³/ (“soul; spirit”), listed by Ferlus.
3. Similar changes can be found in other Mon-Khmer languages: Bru rawìay spirit, Kuy r.wiaj, Lawa Bo Luang ʔawia, Lawa Umphai rawia, Mae Sariang ɣawia, Avïa vi, etc. The final -y induces an epenthetic -i-, and in some cases the final -y further drops, probably out of dissimilation. There is also an example in Vietnamese: ngãi ~ nghĩa.
4. Nôm characters for vía show -ai vocalism:
   • 𡳺, 𤽶, 󱰠 (phonetic 尾: SV vĩ, Nôm vã ~ vãi ~ vĩ ~ vả ~ vải);
   • 𩏳 (phonetic 韋: SV vi, Nôm vi);
   • 𩴅 (not phono-semantic);
   • 𩴬 (phonetic 買: SV mãi, Nôm mái ~ mãi ~ mạy ~ mải ~ mảy ~ mấy ~ mới ~ với);
   • 𩏳 (phonetic 韋: SV vi, Nôm vi);
   • 󱰡 (phonetic 未: SV vị, Nôm mùi ~ vị);

   while vái is written with 拜 (SV bái), 㗑 (phonetic 拜: SV bái), and 𠳿 (phonetic 尾: SV vĩ).

Anyway, I think we should avoid listing it as a descendant of the Proto-Vietic, if Ferlus and other researchers have not yet done so. I have asked Prof. Ferlus, and he replied that he would answer before the end of the week.

Also, the Mường data is interesting, and I feel it may hold the answer to this question. Per Từ điển Mường-Việt, Mường has: wải (vái), wãi (vía) and wái (vái). I think the different forms for vái reflect a dialectal difference, and there is potential dialectalism in vía too. There is a very attractive book on Mường dialectology: Ngữ âm tiếng Mường qua các phương ngôn by Nguyễn Văn Tài (1982 thesis, 2005 publication), which I wish I had read when I was in Vietnam. It is very difficult to access this book now; Thư viện Quốc gia Việt Nam has an electronic version, but it is grossly incomplete. According to Barker (pp. 228), “this graduate thesis includes numerous maps and lists of words from nearly 60 varieties of Mường identified by the author, based on phonological data”. (If you are interested, Thư Viện Khoa Học Tổng Hợp Tp.HCM has it in its storage, accessible from Monday to Thursday I believe.) Wyang (talk) 10:42, 2 April 2018 (UTC)