Talk:tener calor

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tener calor

This is not idiomatic. It might be an open question how to handle the translation, but I don't think this is the way to do it. The Spanish Wikcionario does not have an entry, and some day I'd like to defer this sort of question for foreign terms to the respective Wiktionary. DAVilla 13:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The phrase tener calor is an idiomatic phrase. If you were to say "Estoy calor" instead of "Tengo calor" you would end up making absolutely no sense.

A quick reference I got from googling "tener calor" is this page where it describes the idiomatic usage of tener.

Bearingbreaker92 18:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is idiomatic. Many Spanish uses of tener involve a completely different idiom than English. If you say "Estoy calor" (I am hot), people will look at you funny. You have to use tener to say "Tengo calor" (I have heat) in Spanish. This doesn't hold for all descriptions of condition, as most of the time one uses estar, e.g. "Estoy cansado" (I am tired) or "Estoy listo" (I am ready). The combination tener calor is therefore is idiomatic for Spanish. In any case, I wouldn't advise using the Spanish Wikcionario for comparison because they're behind us in the coverage of Spanish vocabulary. I've found that I'm more likely to be able to look up a Spanish word here than there. When I can't find it here, I use the RAE. In any case, Larousse's Spanish/English Gran Diccionario includes tener calor as a "figurative" entry, so the French think it's idiomatic enough to specifically note.--EncycloPetey 20:22, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I could swear this is the opposite of the argument you made above, at in the hospital. Previously you seemed to be saying that what makes a phrase idiomatic isn't whether you'd know to formulate it that way, but whether presented with it so formulated, you'd understand what it meant. In this light, I'm really not sure tener calor is at all idiomatic; the only reason to keep the entry would be so hot can just say "see tener calor" in place of attempting a Spanish translation. —Ruakh_TALK 22:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It's not the opposite of the argument, it's coming at the argument from the other direction and meeting in the middle. An idiom can be idiomatic because you wouldn't know how to construct it, or it can be an idiom becasue you wouldn't know how to interpret it. Either way, you end up with an unexpected construction, i.e. an idiom. --EncycloPetey 00:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

So how will we go about solving this? Will using a few sources from the internet provide proof enough, or shall we talk to a native speaker of both languages? Bearingbreaker92 23:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The opening sentence of CFI states: "A term should be included if it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means." The construction tener calor forms part of the first course of every Spanish language instructional book I've seen. It appears as an entry in a major bilingual dictionary. Now, it is true that the Collins Spanish Dictionary lists the expression under tener, but the only explanation given is "used in expresssions with certain nouns". What follows is a list of specific expressions in bold (like tener calor) with the translation given separately for each one. What are the other expressions lumped together under that "explanation"?: tener 7 años to be 7, to be 7 years old; tener hambre to be hungry; tener mucha sed to be very thirsty; tener calor to be hot, along with references for tener cuidado to take care; tener celos to act with zeal. Each of these could be called a specific definition of tener, but each works only in conjunction with the specified additional word. When a definition works only in combination with another "word" we've tended in the past to give it a separate entry because it's a set phrase. --EncycloPetey 00:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

These arguments are not well founded. "Estar calor" does not mean "I am hot", it means "I am heat", and with the wrong copula I would imagine. The word in Spanish for hot is caliente, which probably needs a gloss to be a little more narrowly defined than what we have, since the definition of hot that's applicable to this case is "Of a person or animal, feeling the sensation of heat, especially to the point of discomfort." The translation on that page very clearly states that there is no equivalent in Spanish, and in fact already gives "tener calor" as a work-around. So what if the Spanish literally say "I have heat"? That sounds funny in English, but it's no more idiomatic than be hot. DAVilla 00:55, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Your argument lacks basis. It seems to say that "Well the Spanish expression sounds funny, but so does English so everyhting is fine." It doesn't address the basis for calling the expression idiomatic or not.

Firstly, let me clear up the minor points "Soy calor" would mean "I am heat." The verb estar is normally used to express temporary conditions of description or location: "Estoy cansado" (I am tired), "Estoy listo" (I am ready). Saying "Estar calor" would only make sense if you were able to convert your body from matter to energy and back. The verb ser is used to express composition, origin, or unchangebale features: "Soy Americano" (I am American), "Soy moreno" (I am dark-haried/complected). No copula is used here.

Secondly, "I am hot" has two very different meanings in English. One is an indication of experiencing uncomfortable warmth, the other is a vain expression of physical beauty. In Spanish, the former is "Tengo calor" while the latter is "Soy caliente." The latter is an expected construction of description following a form of the verb meaning "to be". The former is an unexpected construction both in English and in Spanish. It has to be learned as an expression, not as its components. The construction "be hot" follows a regular general pattern. There is nothing at all unusual in that, as this is a common standard construction in English and in many European languages. Spanish normally uses this construction as well as can be seen in "Soy caliente" or "Estoy cansado". Both interpretations of the English sentence "I am hot" use this same "be + adjective" construction.

Thirdly, while Spanish normally uses this construction, there are a small handful of exceptions. There are certain Spanish expressions of condition that use tener "to have" instead of estar "to be". This is an unexpected construction for Romance languages, for English, and as far as I am aware for most languages in Europe besides. This makes tener calor more idiomatic than be hot. Thus, in English the grammar is different, which is why saying "I am hot" to describe oneself is not idiomatic in English. We have an adjective that describes being uncomfortably warm, and it is used as a predicate adjective following be to express condition. Spanish has no means of expressing this particular condition in the usual way. Instead, they use an unexpected construction involving an unusual choice of verb. This pattern has to be taught specifically as an exception, and it has to be learned as a unit in Spanish courses. When a construction is unexpected, and has to be learned as a unit, it is idiomatic and deserves inclusion. --EncycloPetey 01:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

For clarification I do not think it sounds funny in Spanish, but if it is an exception as you claim, then very well. I would feel more comfortable though if the entry were added at Spanish Wikcionario as well.

By the way, what's the copula in Spanish? If not both, would have at least thought it was ser. DAVilla 01:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

A copula is an auxillary verb, according to our own definition and no helping verb is used in these constructions. I have checked the OED now, and find that we are missing the sense that you obviously intended. So, I have to amend what I said earlier. Spanish has two copulae: ser and estar. The verb estar comes from Latin stō (stāre), which meant "stand, remain" and its Spanish descendant is the equivalent of "to exist", which in English is usually expressed with a form of be. The verb ser is a descendant of Latin sum. That verb is closer in meaning to English be, but also carried the sense of "exist" that the Spanish segregated to estar. Both ser and estar can take a simple subject and a predicate adjective; the choice is primarily dependant on whether the condition described is temporary or durable. --EncycloPetey 02:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

If anything, the English form be hungry and be thirsty is the odd one out. For bodily feelings in both English and Spanish have and tener are the norm. I have or tengo a pain, a feeling, an ache, an itch, etc. But suddenly, in English only, we use be for hunger and thirst, heat and cold. As tener is a regular standard in Spanish for all these things, then I have to say NO to the idea that tener with frio, calor, hambre, sed are in any way idiomatic. They are to do with how one feels in ones own body. If you touch another person whose hand feels cold, you would say estas frio. or you would ask ¿tienes frio?. Furthermore, we do also have the usage in English I have (a) thirst and I have (a) hunger, which sounds a bit archaic, but is often found in phrases such as I've a thirst you could cut with a knife, as well as idiomatic uses such as have a thirst, or a hunger, for knowledge. And in Spanish you can equally use estoy hambriento / hambriendo. estoy muerto de frio. etc. But for a real idiomatic use, see estoy caliente !! 13:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm...none of those uses appear on our entry for have, and our entry for tener is pathetic (but still better than es:tener). Let me ask it this way: If you remove tener calor would you delete or keep hacer calor? Both of these expressions could translate literally into English as "have heat", but neither one would accurately be expressed that way in English. Each has an entirely different meaning. If you remove expressions like tener sed how would you explain that in Latin America some speakers use hacer sed instead?

More importantly, how would you explain which internal feelings are expressed with tener and which ones are not? You would not express most internal feelings of tiredness or emotion in Spanish or English that way. "I have tiredness", "I have happiness", etc. are highly abnormal in both Spanish and English. And "I have a pain" or "I have an ache" sound archaic in the extreme. Most Americans (at least) would say "My X hurts" or "I've got an itch". The use of tener / have in these situations is highly specific to certain feelings or conditions, not to all of them in general. And as I stated before, this is the hallmark of a set phrase. --EncycloPetey 17:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

If you look at this page you will not find any reference to tener calor as an idiom. The RAE is supposed to be the definition of modern day Spanish. Algrif 17:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Then please tell me which definition of tener covers constructions like this. Answer, definition (12):

12. experimentar Tener cuidado, vergüenza, miedo, hambre, calor, nervios.

That's hardly a stellar definition. It provides a single synonym and then lists words that are used in the construction. --EncycloPetey 17:24, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You beat me to it. I was about to say the same. experimentar. Don't forget that the RAE is considered to be definitive.Algrif 17:29, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Supposed to be yes, but it isn't. I've noticed for instance that they completely omit proper nouns, including names of countries. If you'll look at the lists of words Hippietrail has collected from Central America, you'll see that he's marked many as "not in RAE". --EncycloPetey 17:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

As for "I have an ache" sound archaic in the extreme. I have a head ache, tooth ache, etc etc. I've got = I have an itch. Nothing archaic about any of that. Also, I think it is a huge mistake to make a literal translation, state That sounds odd in English It is the way to do it in Spanish. Hacer calor means It's hot. Is that idiomatic in English? You would have to make the same case in both languages. Algrif 17:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

BTW Hippietrail didnt check the DICCIONARIO PANHISPÁNICO DE DUDAS http://www.rae.es/ Apéndice 5: Lista de países y capitales, con sus gentilicios. Algrif 18:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You're confusing two separate statements I made. one statement was about country names, the other statetment was about words Hippietrail has found are not included in the RAE. Those are two separate issues. --EncycloPetey 18:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I would be interested to see this list. Where is it? ..... But what has this to do with tener calor? Lots of dictionaries do not have certain entries which one might expect to be there. But what the RAE main dictionary and Diccionario de Dudas (which work together as a complimentary pair) does demonstrate is that tener calor is NOT considered to be an idiom in Spanish. Neither does Collins, BTW. Can you find any dictionary that does?

Did you look at what Collins does do to handle tener calor? It says under "definition" 2 of tener (in Spanish: "In phrases with certain nouns" and then goes on to list a bunch of unrelated expressions. I'd hardly call that evidence for not meriting a separate entry—quite the contrary, in fact. We have a "POS" header for Phrase. --EncycloPetey 21:20, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Let's look a little closer at the use of these verbs ser estar and tener in Spanish. Soy calor would translate as I am (the personification of) heat. Equivalent to the Bible entries Dios es amor God is love. Estar as stated above, needs to be followed by the adjective. Estoy caloroso is acceptable use. But the meaning is translated as I am a warm (characteristic), or approachable, person. Estoy caliente has an unfortunate idiomatic use, and that is the only reason you do not usually use it. But it does also mean I am (literally) hot. In otherwords, I have a temperature above the normal that can be measured. Estar + caliente refers to temperature only. ¡No toques el sarten! ¡Está caliente!. Which leaves us with how to express bodily sensations. The Spanish use tener. Tengo calor is the ONLY way to say I feel hot. without saying I have a fever and without saying I am a warm, loving person and without saying I am the embodiment of heat and without saying I feel randy. Sorry, but it cannot, in any way that I can see, be an idiomatic phrase. And other reference works support me in this. Algrif 13:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I vote delete. Although I understand where EP's coming from, I think if you call this idiomatic you have to have an idiomatic entry for English be hot. To me the way to deal with this is to vastly improve our page for tener (and also for be). Widsith 14:07, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Agree delete. Also worth reading what DAVilla said at the top.Algrif 15:56, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

If we delete this, then do we actually delete it or convert it to a redirect, the way we do with variations of expressions? This is one that shows up in all the introductory texts (I have one in from of me that discusses tener calor under a section entitled "Idiomatic uses of tener", by the way). Also, assuming this is deleted for the moment, please take a look at my expansion of our entry for tener (and for a laugh, compare it with es:tener). There are still many definitions of this verb that aren't in yet. Among Spanish verbs, I think only estar, hacer, ir, and ser might have longer entries in the RAE than tener. I've so far only put in the most frequent uses I've encountered. --EncycloPetey 21:12, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

A redirect would seem to be appropriate, given the fact that this discussion is not entirely concluded and will probably run for a while yet. I like your additions EP. And, yes, something needs to be done about es (!!!) Algrif 11:05, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Outstanding improvements to tener, nice one. Widsith 09:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• Redirected, discussion appears to have ended. -- Visviva 12:40, 8 October 2007 (UTC)