Template talk:grc-ipa-rows

Would it be possible to change links in the template from [[:w:IPA chart for English]] to
[[:w:Ancient Greek phonology]]
[[:w:Koine Greek phonology]]
[[:w:Ancient Greek phonology]]
? Maro 18:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

For the time-being, I think it would be best to stick with {{IPA}}, at least until the current discussion concludes. If we still can't link to Ancient Greek phonology, then yes, we may want to switch. However, if we can stick to using the same IPA template as everyone else, so much the better. Future updates will then affect grc entries. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:59, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Dubious content

I came here from μῦθος, which has:

• (Classical) IPA^(key): /Template:grc-ipatok-mTemplate:grc-ipatok-uu^Template:grc-ipatok-thTemplate:grc-ipatok-oTemplate:grc-ipatok-s/

• (Koine) IPA^(key): /mýːtʰos/
• (Byzantine) IPA^(key): /Template:grc-ipatok-mTemplate:grc-ipatok-uu^Template:grc-ipatok-thTemplate:grc-ipatok-oTemplate:grc-ipatok-s/

This is rather dubious, to my knowledge and also according to w:Koine Greek phonology and w:Byzantine Greek. I don't have an issue with the Classical pronunciation except that it gives far too much detail for a historical pronunciation. The θ in Koine should be /θ/. The ῦ in Byzantine Greek should be /i/, at least for the greater portion of the period in question.

I have grave doubts about the utility of this template, as it makes spectacularly accurate claims without providing any sort of verifiable reference. It may make sense to give a basic pronunciation guide for Old Greek forms, but these should certainly be phonological, not closely phonetic, say "/'múː̀tʰos/ ~ /'my:θos/" which would span all of antiquity, say 800 BC to AD 500, but not Byzantine Greek (AD 500-1500). Dbachmann 07:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

There are indeed some problems with this template, and I have not gotten around to giving it a good working over. I think all of your specific suggestions are correct, or at least better than what's given. My impression is that the pronunciations given in the template represent what the stodgiest person might have sounded like at the very beginning of the era named. In other words, they aren't completely wrong (the pronunciations given were probably uttered in the eras named), but they're not very representative. However, the phonological development of Ancient Greek is actually quite well known, largely due to its great sphere of influence, and subsequent copious amount of borrowings (both in and out) and translations. I think that we can make some distinct improvements, but I don't think we need to be any more vague to stay well within established linguistic consensus. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Documentation

Would someone please make a documentation subpage for this template so people know how to use it? Thanks! —Angr 15:21, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I second Angr's concern, and I wouldn't mind it if the documentation explained how it works technically as well. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 14:06, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The documentation is at Category:Ancient Greek IPA tokens. Perhaps it should be moved to a location more easily found. As for how it works, this is not normally documented, but I can at least explain it. The template is surprisingly simple. It simply calls multiple instances of {{grc-ipa-row}} (currently five instances), with different time-period codes. Each instance of {{grc-ipa-row}} calls its time-period helper template (for example, {{grc-ipa-cla}}) for each parameter it's passed. The time-period helper templates are simply big switches; you pass them "th" and they pass back "tʰ" or "θ", etc. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

I've moved the documentation to Template:grc-ipa-rows/doc. —Angr 12:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 01:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Φίλιππος

Is there a reason why the "ππ" in Φίλιππος is transcribed as "p̚p"? The no audible release diacritic makes little sense here, this is an instance of gemination (i.e. "pː" or "pp"). Anon. 09:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I will put removing that on my list of things to do, however I don't promise that it will be done anytime soon. If you're interested in doing it yourself, feel quite free to do so. If you're wondering how, you'd have to go to {{grc-ipa-cla}}, {{grc-ipa-koi}}, {{grc-ipa-koi2}}, and {{grc-ipa-byz}}, find instances where there is something like |pp=p̚p, and change it to |pp=pp or |pp=pː (it looks like a number of double-consonant tokens have this feature). Please ask if further clarification is needed. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 11:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Really, this is kind of ridiculous... it should be rewritten in Lua. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 22:57, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Would Lua be more efficient for the servers? Server demands are something I've always been conscious of, but never had enough knowledge to assess. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Almost certainly in this case. But if you want to get an expert opinion and/or help converting templates to Lua, you know where to ask. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Suppress ancient pronunciation

What should I do if I want to give pronunciation for a word that is not attested in classical Greek but only, say, from the Hellenistic or early Byzantine period? Or conversely a Homeric or classical term that fell out of use in Koine? It would seem anachronistic to give the full list of projected pronunciations in such cases. --Dbachmann (talk) 11:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree there should be some way to suppress the pronunciation for an era before the word existed, but I don't see a problem in keeping a medieval pronunciation for a Homeric word, since presumably even people in the Middle Ages read Homer, and presumably used their familiar pronunciation when they did so, much as modern Shakespearean actors pronounce Shakespeare in RP rather than using Elizabethan-era pronunciation. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

LlywelynII un-deprecated this template

@ObsequiousNewt, CodeCat: It seems LlywelynII has removed the deprecation from this template. I prefer {{grc-IPA}} and would hate to see this template being added to more entries. Any thoughts? —JohnC5 00:17, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an Ancient Greek editor, so I'm probably not the best person to ask. But I do think that the old template is more useful in that it gives more information. However, I don't agree with LlywelynII's methods here; he should have asked around instead. —CodeCat 00:19, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Sorry for pulling you into this, CodeCat. I guess I thought of you because I value your opinion and because of the discussion of making changes to {{grc-IPA}} that we had a while ago (which does actually need to get fixed, btw). —JohnC5 00:40, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a great idea to have people who aren't Ancient Greek editors come in and make sure it's still comprehensible to the rest of us. In any case, if there was a discussion and an official depreciation for this template, go ahead and link to it from here so people can see that. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a depreciation tag on this template. (Although see below: if grc-IPA is shorter and includes this format already, I agree there's nothing wrong with using it instead.) — LlywelynII 04:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Also, don't the two templates give the same amount of information? You just have to expand grc-IPA? —JohnC5 00:41, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Ah. I didn't see that. As with CodeCat, my first thought was that this template is obviously superior to the ugly and less informative treatment at {{grc-IPA}}. If it easily expands into the exact same format, there's obviously no reason to have identical templates or to use the one with less functionality. That said, is there any way to move the "expand" command leftwards, so it shows up right next to the last entry and is more obvious? No one seeing /x/ > /y/ > /z/ for the first time will get precisely what's being shown. — LlywelynII 04:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Persisting Problems with grc-IPA template

Katharevousa pronunciation is not identical to 15th century constantinople pronunciation. It often ignores important sound changes that happened in Byzantine and Koiné Greek. The new grc-IPA template seems to better reflect Katharevousa pronunciation than the byzantine and koiné. It ignores the pronunciation changes for diphthongs ending /ʊ́s/ to /ps/ for 15th century Greek. I have no Idea how to fix this template so I switched the entry (βασιλεύς) to the old template grc-ipa-rows. The newer template is also missing many other sound changes like /γκ/--> /ŋk/, the loss of nasals before fricatives in byzantine Greek, weakening of [r] to [ɾ], the changes involved in post-nasal consonant pairs /VNC/--> /ṼG/~/VⁿG/ where V is any vowel, C is any unvoiced stop, N is any nasal, and G is any voiced stop, the possible nasalization of gamma before mu so that /γμ/-->/ŋm/, the merger of stop clusters /sCʰ/ with /sC/, the spirantization of stops before other stops like /pt/--> /ft/, and the merger of overlong diphthongs ending in /υ/ with their normal length pairs in Koiné Greek. I switched many other Ancient Greek entries back to the original template because of these deficiencies, but it would be better if someone else could fix the newer template so that it includes these important sound changes. The newer template also fails to recognize many other sound changes, but my post has already become too long for me to list any more examples. —Nayrb Rellimer (talk) 01:14, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not in a position to fix the template either, but I would point out that Katharevousa is el, not grc, so there should be no expectation that either {{grc-IPA}} or {{grc-ipa-rows}} reflects Katharevousa pronunciation. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:54, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Pitch vs. stress accent

Classical Greek had a pitch accent where the accent marks denote that different syllables were pronounced with different pitch rather than with different intensities of intonation as in, say, English or Modern Greek. At some time during the first couple of centuries AD this changed to a stress accent instead. I think this ought to be reflected in the output of this template. The current output does not make this distinction, styling all rows as if they represented a pitch accent. For instance the entry βροτός using the template has the following output:

• (5th BC Attic): IPA: /brotós/
• (1st BC Egyptian): IPA: /brotós/
• (4th AD Koine): IPA: /βrotós/
• (10th AD Byzantine): IPA: /vrotós/
• (15th AD Constantinopolitan): IPA: /vɾotós/

However, at least the last two and probably the last three lines should be given using the IPA stress mark instead of the acute accent, used in IPA to denote a high tone level, i.e. it should say:

• (4th AD Koine): IPA: /βroˈtos/
• (10th AD Byzantine): IPA: /vroˈtos/
• (15th AD Constantinopolitan): IPA: /vɾoˈtos/

For the time of the change from a pitch to a stress accent, I'd refer to Sidney Allens brilliant book "Vox Graeca: A Guide to the Pronunciation of Classical Greek" p. 119. –Pinnerup (talk) 00:28, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

This template is deprecated and will be replaced by {{grc-IPA}}. —JohnC5 03:55, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Ah, no worries then. Thanks :) –Pinnerup (talk) 23:02, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

RFD discussion: February 2017–September 2022

The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.

---

Template:grc-ipa-rows

We can put this to rest now that {{grc-IPA}} exists. The only issue is replacing it in all the entries that use it, and I don't know whether that can be automated, since ambiguous vowel length will have to be marked. Note to the closer of this discussion: there are a bunch of subtemplates that need to be deleted as well. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:29, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Delete on the condition that the new template is made to display like the old, keep otherwise. —CodeCat 02:30, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

It already does display like the old. Maybe you didn't click 'Show more'. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:33, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

I prefer it to be expanded by default. The collapsed display tells you so little, it's almost useless. If I'm looking for the Byzantine pronunciation, it doesn't help me at all. —CodeCat 02:37, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

That's a perfectly valid personal preference, and you can make it show automatically for you by going to 'Visibility' at the lower left of your screen, on the sidebar, and clicking 'Show pronunciations'. In order to save space, the template autocollapses by default, but as you now can see, it displays just like the old one did. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:39, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

{{grc-ipa-rows}} doesn't really have ambiguous vowel length, because |a|, |i|, |u| are always short, while |aa|, |ii|, |uu| are always long. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:02, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Before we completely eliminate {{grc-ipa-rows}}, though, I do hope someone will address the point I brought up last year at Template talk:grc-IPA#Possible fixes. As far as I know, the discrepancies still exist. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:10, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

Keep until discrepancies between this and {{grc-IPA}} are ironed out. {{grc-IPA}} is currently riddled with errors. - Gilgamesh~enwiki (talk) 04:45, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

This looks to have been orphaned at some point in the last 5 years, so RFD-deleted (really just deprecated to allow old revisions to be visible). This, that and the other (talk) 07:23, 17 September 2022 (UTC)