Wiktionary:Grease pit

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives +/-


February 2015

Help with ff-root[edit]

Need help with reviewing syntax for the new Template:ff-root. Seems to work but for the articles in the category not showing in the category. TIA.--A12n (talk) 18:45, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Seems to be working now, but a review of syntax would still be appreciated. TIA.--A12n (talk) 19:41, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the template is supposed to do, as there is no documentation. Can you elaborate? —CodeCat 19:56, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
It's modeled after the ar-root template - but only needs to display the root on the page on which it's placed, put that page in the Fula roots category, and put itself in the Fula template category. There was a delay in populating the categories so I thought there was a problem. Will look at how to do the documentation (appears from the ar-root example to require a separate page.--A12n (talk) 20:06, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
If the purpose is only to show the page name, and add a category, then you don't need to make a new template. The standard template "head" will do: {{head|ff|root}}. —CodeCat 20:11, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. Will look into changing.--A12n (talk) 20:40, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Option for checking past contributions...[edit]

I really think that there should be an "only show items that are not on your watchlist" option for checking one's past contributions.

Oftentimes, I remove items from my watchlist once I feel that they are no longer in any danger of being vandalised or the like. However, sometimes I wish to check on those items that I have removed from my watchlist just on the off chance that something did happen to them.

Is there any way to implement such an option for that? Tharthan (talk) 17:15, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

this script makes unwatched entries bolder on Users Contribution page, but is awfully slow.--Dixtosa (talk) 23:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Bug in romanization of Arabic[edit]

The automatic romanization of Arabic has a small bug in the translations list. If you look at the English word 'wolf', the Arabic translation is given as ذِئْب (I have no idea whether that'll come out correctly here.) This is correct, but the romanization is (ḏīb). That is, it is not recognizing that the middle ya is the bearer of hamza, and is treating it as a ya of prolongation, giving a long vowel. On the actual page for the word ذِئْب, the hamza is correctly coming out in the transcription (ḏiʾb). – 16:29, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

We don't have automatic romanization of Arabic. It's all manual for that language. If someone romanized it as ḏīb when it should be ḏiʾb, then they just made a mistake. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:00, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Not quite true. It's automatic but only if the transliteration module determines that the word is fully vocalised. In any case, though, manual transliterations will override automatic ones. —CodeCat 17:03, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
Sure 'nuff. I took out the manual translit and now it automatically generates ḏiʾbun. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:15, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
By convention, we don't include ʾiʿrāb in the translations to Arabic, so I changed the translation to ذِئْب (ḏiʾb). ذِئْبٌ (ḏiʾbun) is the nominative singular indefinite form in the MSA or Classical Arabic. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:15, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
There's an ongoing discussion about the use of ʾiʿrāb in Wiktionary. Suffice to say that nunation is not pronounced in "pausa" (end of a clause before a pause) even in standard Arabic. No dialect preserves nunation, except for some accusative forms, especially adverbials but this also usually affects unvocalised spellings (alif is written in most cases). See also Wiktionary:About_Arabic#.CA.BEi.CA.BFr.C4.81b_.28final_short_vowels_and_nunation.29. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:26, 5 February 2015 (UTC)


It's showing "uncountable, plural -", which doesn't make sense. This, that and the other (talk) 10:53, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

It's fixed now. —CodeCat 14:11, 23 February 2015 (UTC)


As mentioned at Template:headtempboiler#Letter template there's the parameter "lower2=" in Template:headtempboiler:letter. But that doesn't work anymore and seems to have been remoed here. A "lower2" is e.g. needed for σ (sigma). So the template needs to be fixed. Or should {{head|LANG|letter|lowercase|LOWER2|uppercase|UPPER}} be used like in β? -Yodonothav (talk) 21:56, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

Telugu script not showing up correctly[edit]

A picture, for anyone seeking to troubleshoot this. - -sche (discuss) 08:33, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Hi! So I noticed that there seems to be a problem with how certain aspects of the Telugu script show up within entries (i. e., not in the titles). Consonant adjuncts don't seem to be working at all; consonant clusters appear as the two base consonants next to each other, the first with a virama (the inherent vowel deleter) and the second with the appropriate vowel adjunct. While this technically produces the same sound if read out loud, it is not generally how Telugu orthography works. Secondly, many vowel adjuncts don't seem to be working either... The adjunct simply shows up next to the base consonant it's supposed to be modifying, but just hovering next to it instead of being integrated like it should be. Below is an example of an entry which features all of these problems:


The word should look like it does in the title of the entry, but nowhere else in the article does it look remotely like that. Does anyone know how I could fix or help fix this issue? It's rather widespread in Telugu articles. –AxaiosRex (అక్షయ్⁠రాజ్) 00:24, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Fixed by removing a crappy font from Common.css (Sangam Telugu is good, though). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 09:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Space in Template:IPA[edit]

Can anyone figure out why {{IPA}} is no longer placing a space after the colon? Kc kennylau says he doesn't think it's because of his recent edits to Module:IPA, but I don't see any other recent edits to relevant templates or modules that could be causing it. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:12, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

PTO translated with a combined mark into Hungarian[edit]

Hello there,

I wonder if it's possible to add this sign: ˙/. as a translation for PTO in its second meaning ('please turn over'). There seems to be an issue with this string. I wrote "fordíts!" as well, because that's how it's expanded in speech, but in terms of writing, this form is not used, only the combination of these three characters. Thanks in advance for your help. Adam78 (talk) 23:36, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary talk:Babel#Greenlandic_.28kl.29[edit]

It seems that (a) the Wikimedia #Babel system has a bug affecting Greenlandic, and (b) we're missing Template:User kl-0. See Wiktionary talk:Babel#Greenlandic_.28kl.29 for discussion. - -sche (discuss) 00:58, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Automated flagging of missing Wiktionary entries[edit]

Hello! I am an information scientist and natural language complexity researcher at the University of Vermont, leading a project that predicts "missing" phrase-entries from a dictionary. This development only applies to dictionaries that include larger-than-word lexical objects (such as the the Wiktionary). For example, I am able to generate shortlists of four-word phrases that are similar to those defined in the Wiktionary, which in fact are missing:

  • benefit of a doubt
  • keep an eye to
  • roll off the presses
  • one of a million
  • one upon a time
  • made up your mind
  • what time is new
  • down in the count
  • keep an eye for
  • ...

These lists are ordered according to how likely they are to be meaningful (in need of definition).

Notice that some are completely absent idiomatic entries, like

  • roll off the presses,

which is similar to the extant, "roll off the tongue".

Many more are variants of existing metaphoric forms, like

  • keep an eye for,

which are still without reference or redirect.

I would like to add to the requested entries list on Wiktionary:

as part of this ongoing research project, mapping out and defining the greater, English lexicon of phrases.

As this could generate large lists of requested entries, I must ask, is this reasonable within the current framework of the Wiktionary system?

If not, would it be possible to create a separate access point through which I could make these shortlists public?

I am very interested in enhancing the breadth and depth of knowledge---already enormous---on the Wiktionary.

My service and interest in this is purely academic, and I offer it freely and openly.

Looking forward to this discussion :)

Sincerely, Jake Ryland Williams


jake[dot]williams[at]uvm[dot]edu http://www.uvm.edu/~jrwillia/


Hi. Please sign up with a user name, and then you can create subpages under your user page, like (for example) User:MyName/mypage1. I don't think that a new experimental project will be quite ready to post on WT:REE yet. Equinox 17:54, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
But many of your phrases are just, plain wrong :-
benefit of a doubt - benefit of the doubt
keep an eye to - keep an eye out
one of a million - one in a million
one upon a time - once upon a time
made up your mind - make up one's mind
what time is new ?
down in the count - down for the count
keep an eye for - see above

SemperBlotto (talk) 18:03, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello again, and thank you all very much for your responses. Thanks Equinox---I have created a user account---and DCDuring---I have transported this conversation to my user page, enhancing it to a more full description. Please visit jakerylandwilliams and feel free to contact me with an questions or suggestions. As stated, I am very interesting in working with the Wiktionary, and within whatever framework is deemed productive and acceptable. Best, Jake.

Edittools no longer working[edit]

Has anyone else found that Edittools no longer works? It appears in my UI when I'm in edit mode just as expected, and I can click on any of the items, but instead of inserting the clicked text at the location of the cursor in the textbox, the UI focus just ... vanishes. The blue outline on the textbox, indicating that the textbox is the active UI element, disappears, and nothing else is highlighted. I have to click within the textbox before I can type again.

This non-functionality first arose maybe a month ago. I had made no changes to my Edittols config, and something (I forget what) led me to think that it was a browser update issue (I had been using slightly-outdated Chrome 30-something), but updating Chrome didn't fix the issue. I decided to do some testing yesterday, and found the same problem under Chromium on Ubuntu, and on Firefox on Mac, leading me to conclude that the Edittools infrastructure must have changed somehow.

Any further information would be much appreciated. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)Á

This kind of error is most likely caused either by broken/outdated personal JavaScript or one or more broken/outdated gadget(s). We've been seeing this on a number of wikis recently. I suggest you try disabling non-default gadgets and commenting out user scripts until you find that Edittools works again. This, that and the other (talk) 06:19, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
I have disabled almost all gadgets, deleted my common.js, and cleaned up most checked boxes in my per-browser preferences, but I still cannot add characters from the extended character set menus. Could this be Java-version specific, ie attributable to recent updates of these? DCDuring TALK 21:22, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Can you check the webconsole of your browser and see if there is a javascript error? I had something like that: ReferenceError: insertTags is not defined. I think that "insertTags" may have been deprecated in the latest release, and it should normally work while showing "Use of "insertTags" is deprecated. Use mw.toolbar.insertTags instead." Maybe try to purge your cache. — Dakdada 17:14, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, it did change, see phab:T85787. If purging does not solve your issue, open a bug report there. — Dakdada 17:22, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I've purged and still get the inserTags error, but I'm not sure if the issue is with MW -- I suspect the problem is that our infrastructure here is outdated, as I dimly recall that Edittools is based on old code from Conrad Irwin. Last I mucked about with my own personal JavaScript settings for Edittools, the best practice at the time was to copy Conrad's code. Is there some MediaWiki code that we should be copying instead, or transcluding instead? Our own WT page discussing Edittools seems to be somewhat out of date, and I'm not sure where else to look. I'll poke around phab:T85787 later when I have more time. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:38, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
If anyone reading this knows how to do this, please implement the required change. I poked around in MediaWiki:Gadgets-definition, but I didn't see anything related to charinsert. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 08:57, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for doing the research. I hope it gets implemented quickly. Now I can't even do a copy and paste from the Edittools character sets. I would need to use Unicode to get the characters. DCDuring TALK 14:27, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
The charinsert is implemented in MediaWiki:Edit.js, loaded by MediaWiki:Gadget-legacy.js (the first, default gadget). — Dakdada 16:20, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:alternative form of[edit]

This template starts with a capital letter, whereas all other similar form-of templates appear to begin with a lowercase. Could someone please deal with this? This, that and the other (talk) 23:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

"all other similar form-of templates appear to begin with a lowercase" Such as...? Look at the templates in Category:Form-of templates, all of the ones I've checked so far all begin with an uppercase letter. Some of them seem to have a parameter that allows you to render it in lowercase for whatever reason (using the template amid a definition instead of on it's own line perhaps?). Bruto (talk) 01:58, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Our whole set of non-gloss templates is not entirely consistent on whether to start with an uppercase or lowercase letter and end with a dot or nothing. It'd be nice to standardize. Since we generally (though a few object to this) begin English sense-lines with uppercase letters and end them with dots, while beginning other languages' sense-lines with lowercase letters and ending them without dots, perhaps the templates could even be set up to capitalize and punctuate based on the lang= parameter. - -sche (discuss) 18:51, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

Help with ff-noun[edit]

Need to request help to include a parameter in Template:ff-noun that would add the entry to a category for the indicated noun class. That is, with {{ff-noun|sg-nc|plural|pl-nc}}, to have this category generated: [[Category:Fula noun in class sg-nc]]. The object is to group entries for nouns by noun class. These new categories would then be subcategories of Category:Fula nouns. TIA for any help or pointers.--A12n (talk) 04:56, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Maybe you could do it the same way as {{sw-noun}}? Are your needs any different? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 08:28, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Thx. Looks like that approach could be adapted. Is there a simpler way, taking the contents of the sg-nc field and putting it in the specified location in the category? (I'll need to read up on the coding, evidently.)
Well, I used a different system of categorising the noun classes, one that makes sense for Swahili but is not the numerical system standardly used by Africanist linguists. Besides other benefits, it greatly reduces what has to be typed into the template. That said, if you really want three parameters where the template itself is unable to predict anything and you must fill them all out, I can do that for you. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
Thinking about this. Noun class names in Fula unlike Swahili (if I'm seeing the latter correctly) also have a function - so ki for instance is also a particle functioning as a determiner and an indicative depending on whether it is after or before the noun. So the {{ff-noun}} template is set up so you type in whichever of the 22 or so singlar classes is appropriate (there are 4 plural classes but I still need to generate a template for plural Fula nouns). The other two parameters - the plural and the plural class - also need to be keyed in (no way to predict the plurals that I can see - ending can vary, and some initial consonants shift). So yes, if you could help that would be most appreciated.--A12n (talk) 04:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)

Soundex search[edit]

This site demonstrates a Javascript function that generates a soundex code for a string. I assume that it is useful only within a given language. Couldn't we supplement our existing orthographic indexes (and our incomplete misspellings, IPA, and rhymes coverage) with a soundex index to enable search for terms (words?) the spelling of which is not correctly known? It would be nice if it were integrated into search, but it would first be nice to determine whether it would work and be useful at all.

Is it a good idea? What would be involved? DCDuring TALK 23:21, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I see at w:Soundex that there are improvements over the original soundex system. DCDuring TALK 23:28, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
For misspellings the w:Levenshtein_distance is actually a better approach. The search engine used by MediaWiki already supports this, you'll need to add ~ to the search term (fuzzy search). Jberkel (talk) 01:41, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
@Jberkel: Thanks a lot. It's wonderful that we have it already. Is what we have "tuned" for English? What scripts and languages does it work with? DCDuring TALK 03:28, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
The Levenshtein distance is language agnostic (in contrast to the Soundex/Metaphone group of algorithms). The implementation used in MediaWiki has full unicode support so should work with all scripts supported by that standard. – Jberkel (talk) 14:37, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Well yes but Soundex is about sound, not writing or misspelling. Is it not what DCDuring asked (words for which we don't know the spelling, but an approximate pronunciation)? — Dakdada 16:17, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
True, it's not about sound. But looking at the references in the article, Soundex (and most derivatives) are optimised for English (or non-English words familiar to English speakers). It would be very hard to build a version of Soundex which works well with the majority of languages and scripts in use here. However It would be interesting to see if the IPA data (where available) can be used to implement phonetic search. – Jberkel (talk) 17:01, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Both sound and spelling are issues. Many misspellings, especially in English, are based on the sound. Hardly any ordinary users know IPA, so the only tool, short of asking at Info Desk or Tea Room, is to use conventional orthography as best one can. So: spelling matters, probably much more than anything else. But a Levenshtein or other distance would be more accurate if it "knew" whether the source of distance was a typo, or a scanno, or a thinko, or a pronunciation spelling (ie, a spelling intended to represent what was heard). For near-misses all of the above could be used to determine what the search engine offers the user, but a better focused list would be generated if the user could specify that pronunciation representation was the objective. A special interface to elicit better sound information from a user would be nice.
Any effort that worked for English would be a good start. For almost all searches we are likely to see the matrix language at least would be known and a secondary language could be guessed. DCDuring TALK 17:10, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
IPA can be used to search for sounds to some extent, at least as long as the user can type the sounds that he wants. I already did a tool like that for French (no fuzzy searches though), and I opted to use a virtual keyboard to type IPA symbols (see here). This approach can be found in other dictionaries like TLFi. The most difficult problem seems to be how to help the user type what he wants to find, rather that the search itself. — Dakdada 17:36, 19 February 2015 (UTC)


Neither {{head}} nor {{en-part}} works at '. Both result in this being displayed as the headword line: [[Category:English lemmas|]][[Category:English particles|]]. - -sche (discuss) 22:22, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

This is because apostrophes are stripped when making category sort keys. Of course in this case there is nothing left after that. I'm not sure what the best solution for this would be. The simplest, that I can think of, would be to skip creating a sort key altogether if the page name is only one character, but that would still break when someone creates something like ''. —CodeCat 22:28, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
sort=' solved it. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:30, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! - -sche (discuss) 22:44, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Chinese classifier template[edit]

I'm not sure if this idea has been run by you guys before, but what do you think of the idea of having a template that generates the correct classifier(s) for each Chinese entry? (@Atitarev, CodeCat, DCDuring, Wyang: Any input?) WikiWinters (talk) 11:12, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Did I break anything?[edit]

Hi. I've been playing with some Modules recently, which is probably not healthy for Wiktionary. Anyway, I'm trying to generate categories for missing noun forms, and later will try to do the same for other parts of speech. I've fiddled with lots of modules, but the only fiddle that worked, much to my delight, was my one on Module:ca-headword. My edits to Module:en-headword , Module:pt-headword , Module:fr-headword , Module:gl-headword and Module:ru-headword did not have the desired effect, and I'm afraid I might have broken something. Modules, by the way, are really complicated things! --Type56op9 (talk) 17:46, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

It would be useful to have a page Help:Modules to explain how to write and use the damn things, you know. --Type56op9 (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
One of the lines of Help:Modules will be like "Do not touch anything that is used by thousands of entries if you do not know what you are doing", for sure... --Dixtosa (talk) 18:25, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
I'm sure CodeCat would be happy to help. DCDuring TALK 20:18, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
If I'm to help, I'm just going to revert it all. —CodeCat 20:24, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
Why's that? Can't you assist with the objective, provided it is expressed, of course? DCDuring TALK 21:20, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
The objective is for Wonderfool to continue creating form-of entries with his bot or through some other (presumably automated) means, even though there have been complaints about the mistakes he has been making. Since it doesn't seem he wants to hold himself accountable for his edits (if he did, then why does he circumvent blocks?), I've chosen to stay far away from this topic, and want to bear no responsibility if it causes more problems. Let someone else deal with it. —CodeCat 22:08, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
I appreciate the comments, CodeCat. You are right about everything - the objective is to enrich Wiktionary with form-of entries (semi-automated, using WT:ACCEL, in fact). It's a pity that modules are so complicated, because it means less of us are able to use them. I'll follow this topic closely, and play with modules some more, until I either figure them out or I give up. --Type56op9 (talk) 10:34, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
If you work on modules you unfortunately have to spend some time to learn how to program. If you're unsure what you're doing then you should try your changes with one module first (preferably sandboxed). Once everything works as expected apply the changes to the live module. As far as I can tell you just blindly copy-pasted code snippets around. Jberkel (talk) 01:13, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
If someone could tell me how to -- or where to find the docs telling me how to -- sandbox a module, or even to create a module in userspace for testing before bringing it out into mainspace, and how to invoke it either way, I would be very much obliged. --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 01:19, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Everyone has their own sandbox module, yours is at Module:User:Catsidhe. You can create that and use as many subpages as you like. —CodeCat 01:30, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Catsidhe and Type56op9 raise a valid point: we don't have good documentation around modules and the development approach in general. Everything feels quite ad-hoc and every module author does things a little bit differently. Wheels get reinvented. Code gets copied. It would be good to work towards a consensus on how certain things should be done. Wiktionary:Coding_conventions#Lua is not enough. – Jberkel (talk) 02:13, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Spanish nouns without Template:es-noun[edit]

Hi there. How would one go about generating a list of Spanish nouns not including Template:es-noun? --Type56op9 (talk) 10:43, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Well, I would take the contents of the Spanish nouns category together with "what links here" of the template and sort them together. Throw away all the entries that occur twice and Robert is your parent's brother. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:48, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Or alternatively, you can ask the author of module:head to change it so that it categorizes just like you want. Or even better option is to change es-noun by yourself (not protected yay! :D) so that it does not categorize es-nouns and then get the list of new Spanish nouns. you may need to do massive null-edits on pages though. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:11, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

I think you can use AWB to compare lists (and possibly even to generate them from categories and whatlinkshere) even without being approved to save edits with it. - -sche (discuss) 22:08, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Urgent help please - boxing spammer[edit]

A very persistent spammer keeps adding "mywikibiz" rubbish to pages. He was using Talk:boxing until I protected it, and is now using other pages. He is a human, not a bot, and responds aggressively to people trying to stop him. He has many IPs. Can someone prevent "mywikibiz" being inserted into articles? -- that is the only way to stop him spamming his site. I tried adding it to a filter but I must have done it wrong. Thanks. Equinox 20:18, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Done. --Yair rand (talk) 23:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
They still seem to be getting through, on kickboxing and martial art now. —CodeCat 22:19, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
  • The two bad edits that CodeCat fixed were both from the 208.54.32.xxx range. Equinox, could you tell us if this spammer consistently uses this range? If so, maybe we just block this range for a few days / weeks from making anon edits? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:38, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
IPs used by the spammer so far: Equinox 17:05, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Blank page[edit]

The page share is currently totally blank. Does anyone has an idea of the problem? — Automatik (talk) 14:39, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

It could be an ad blocker. —CodeCat 15:05, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
Exactly, thank you! AdBlock disabled for this page. — Automatik (talk) 15:21, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Kassadbot still not running?[edit]

There are now over 12,000 entries in Category:Requests for autoformat. SemperBlotto (talk) 08:44, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Oh is there still no replacement? Sheesh. I've been, uh... in inpatient treatment for a while (borderline personality disorder sure is fun) and I got a new PC and lost maybe half my files due to a less-than-reliable USB hard drive. I might give it a try if I can set everything up again. -- Liliana 10:36, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikisaurus change[edit]

Well, since wikisaurus has been proposed as a tool in order to find synonyms, antonyms, etcetera. Instead of adding synonyms of synonyms shouldn't all synonyms be linked together.

For example, if I add a synonym entry to cat as 'feline', then shouldn't wikisaurus create an entry 'feline' if it doesn't exist, and add 'cat' plus all synonyms, antonyms of cat? The reason for this is, that it might be easier to manage all the synonyms on a 'collective' space, so they're maybe, easier to manage together, and it might increase the size of wikisaurus way faster. 18:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

If I understand what you're proposing, I would say it's not a good idea. A big problem with Wikisaurus is that it's not always obvious when you're creating an entry whether there's already a Wikisaurus entry that covers it. If I put felid as a synonym for cat, Wikisaurus:felid would duplicate Wikisaurus:feline. Also, WS entries are often based on subtle semantic distinctions that automated methods wouldn't be able to handle. The likely result of an automated method would be lots of single-member WS entries that would just add clutter and confusion. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:51, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Redirects would solve the problem of people creating Wikisaurus:felid because they don't know about Wikisaurus:feline. Perhaps someone could even create a gadget similar to the one used on rhymes pages, which would create redirects automatically when a new synonym was added to a Wikisaurus page (i.e. if I add foobar to Wikisaurus:feline, the gadget would create Wikisaurus:foobar as a redirect to Wikisaurus:feline). - -sche (discuss) 19:05, 21 February 2015 (UTC)
Redirects are unnecessary since (a) the user can use the search bar present at the top of each Wikisaurus entry to find whether a WS page already contains the term, and (b) the mainspace Synonyms section for each word should eventually link to the corresponding Wikisaurus pages (I have now expanded felid to link to WS:feline). --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:56, 22 February 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Chuck Entz. I add that, generally speaking, most synonyms are not 100% equivalent, and this can be addressed in Wikisaurus, but not automatically. And Wikisaurus should not address only synonyms, antonyms... but should be a true thesaurus. @-sche: redirects are a good idea, but this cannot be automatic: many words have several meanings, and might appear in several Wikisaurus pages. Lmaltier (talk) 19:11, 21 February 2015 (UTC)


I wonder if anyone could fix Template:sa-verb-pres? It has extra "}}". (See हन्ति for example) --KoreanQuoter (talk) 12:13, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

Nevermind, I think I got it, --KoreanQuoter (talk) 12:50, 22 February 2015 (UTC)


I was fiddling with a Module again. It didn't work. Could someone check it, and correct it, please? --Type56op9 (talk) 15:16, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

software database dictionary[edit]

I have invented a word game and would like a free concise dictionary, in the form of a downloadable software database file, for inclusion within it. Is there such a file which can be used commercially? The word list I am using for the game is SCOWL and I am hoping to get a dictionary which will contain all the words that are in that word lst, so that when a word ((in the forum of the link ) is pointed to and clicked, the player will be directed to a short meaning of it.

Thanks Paul

See Help:FAQ#Downloading_Wiktionary. You'll have to run a manual comparison against SCOWL; also be aware that we are fairly inclusive of unusual and offensive words: your players might object to some of them if they are not in mainstream dictionaries etc. Equinox 22:02, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Wikidata experiment with taxon hypernyms[edit]

(Pinging people who might be interested, but might not check Grease pit very often. Sorry for ping spam.)

@DCDuring: @Chuck Entz: @SemperBlotto: @I'm so meta even this acronym: @JohnC5: @Equinox:

Messed around today with Wikidata and lua. Thought I'd share in case anyone might be able to use the output in some way, or wanted to push it along, or just wanted to see what might be possible when they ever enable Wikidata on Wiktionary.

So I was considering creating some sort of bot to generate the "hypernym" section for species and other taxon entries here, (and also pondering the mess on Wikipedia which is the Taxobox template, which is a related problem), and I thought it'd be far better to have a template with a lua script that did it all instead of running a bot. Was going to just spend an hour or two on it in the morning, but ended up spending most of the day getting it working.

Due to how Wiktionary being disconnected from Wikidata, the script will only run on Wikidata's internal wiki right now, but some day they might connect us to Wikidata and enable "access to arbitrary items". So for now the module only runs on Wikidata.

It outputs something you "could" paste into Wiktionary. It takes a "Q" number of a taxon's Wikidata item, and outputs the wikitext for the hypernym section.

Here's a sample of the kind of output (so far):

Octopoda (hypernyms) {{#invoke:Wiktionary-taxon|hypernym|Q40152}}

The dodo: (hypernyms) {{#invoke:Wiktionary-taxon|hypernym|Q43502}}

(more examples)

So while the script can't be used directly on Wiktionary yet, you could copy-paste the output into Wiktionary, but you would probably want to trim it down first. Obviously it still needs some work. Mostly it needs some added heuristics to choose which ranks to ignore. But thought I'd share it so far anyway.

You can try editing/previewing this with other species/taxa here: d:User:Pengo/hypernym, or see the module here: d:Module:Wiktionary-taxon. Will be glad if it can be be used in its current state.

Happy editing. Pengo (talk) 06:21, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The proliferation of names, both ranked and unranked, for taxonomic clades and the unsettled relationship among them makes keeping track of relationships hard. It also makes keeping up sometimes counterproductive for dictionary users, who are generally not reading works that are up-to-the-minute in this regard. The "correct" placement and circumscription of a taxon is often provisional for years or decades and is sometimes controversial, with multiple hypernymic and hyponymic relationships being in use for some time. Most of the existing sources of taxonomic information have a hard time keeping track of the information for genus and species, let alone higher and lower taxa.
Even Wikispecies and English Wikipedia often disagree, sometimes without acknowledgement in Wikipedia of controversy. Wikispecies is particularly bad at recognizing multiple placements and circumscriptions, doing so only for the "highest" taxa, Commons attempts to reconcile them. The non-WMF external sites that try to have comprehensive coverage of many ranks or clades, firstly, do not actually have comprehensive coverage, secondly, rarely present controversy, and, thirdly, lag behind specialized websites, which are numerous, but often relatively short-lived (10 years being "long" and I'm not just talking about web addresses).
Thus, the grand project of presenting the apparently straightforward data structure of taxonomy requires a huge effort to simply keep track of the twists and turns of classification and may miss the mark in presenting how the authors our readers actually are reading have actually used taxonomic terms.
I have no particular solutions to the problem, other than including links to as many outside sites that cover this kind of thing. I wouldn't know how to usefully present multiple discrete circumscriptions (hyponyms) and placements (hypernyms) of taxa (some kind of diffs?). I don't want to discourage any work in this area, but I expect that there will be much more enthusiasm for working on the programming for the simplified snapshot of the latest taxonomy than for maintaining the data or reflecting the history and diversity of opinion. DCDuring TALK 14:32, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
Higher-level taxa tend to be less stable, since they're more abstract. Even when there's no question as to the branches, different taxonomists may represent them using different ranks: one may see a family with subfamilies, while another may see a superfamily with families, a family with tribes, or even an order with suborders. DNA and cladistic analysis don't always clear things up, since one study may focus on specific mitochondrial genes, while another may look for transposon sequences within nuclear DNA; choice, weighting and coding of features, choice of outgroup, and various other differences in methodology can lead to radically different trees from one study to the next. These will eventually get sorted out, but things are mostly in an unsettled, preliminary stage for the near future. These are exciting, but confusing times.
As for filtering algorithms: a lot of it is context within the larger structure- nodes that have sisters should be shown. Family, genus and species are always of interest, and often orders, classes, divisions/phyla and kingdoms. When there are multiple unbranched levels, omit prefixed ranks: orders, but not suborders or infraorders, families, but not superfamilies or subfamilies, etc. Subgenus is especially awkward, since it comes between the two parts of the binomial- so omit it whenever possible. I hope this helps. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:26, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
@DCDuring: Ultimately the goal, if I were to spend way too much more time working on this, would be to make it resemble the existing lists, but share the maintenance with the other many other WMF projects which use taxonomies.
Maintaining taxonomy data is happening separately already on Commons and Wikispecies and every wikipedia and wiktionary. I don't expect all the projects to switch to using Wikidata tomorrow or any time soon though, but ultimately it could only be less work to do so.
The conflicting taxonomies thing always come up when talking about Wikidata and taxonomies. The idea of using Wikidata seems to quickly get shouted down because en.wiki need to do their taxoboxes differently to fr.wiki (I have to admit, I've never worked out what the specific disagreements/differing views are actually about, but I accept they're valid).
However the problem should be solvable. Wikidata might be centralized, but it allows multiple, "conflicting" data items, which can be tagged with their source and dates, and other such things. If multiple taxonomies were imported into Wikidata, it should be possible to have one project pick one set of preferred sources, and have another pick another, but both still use the same data source, the same code, and use the data in the areas where there isn't controversy. A simplified taxonomy should also be possible, perhaps borrowing the IUCN's red list, where the focus appears to be on large familiar groupings of species more than on accurate cladistics (e.g. it doesn't place birds under reptiles). So the projects could be much more internally consistent. Another project could leverage the conflicting viewpoints and choose to present either one or both. (Yes, the job of working out how to display it best is difficult too, but at least it might become possible to find a new way to display information and actually apply it to existing data)
Hebrew Wikipedia is currently using Wikidata for its taxoboxes, but due to the current limitations on accessing Wikidata from Wikipedia, the tree can't be recursively climbed like I've done here, and instead each taxon in Wikidata needs its own links to some limited set of higher taxa. The guy who made the module presented it on a talk page to en.wiki two years ago but if anyone was enthusiastic about it, they hid it well. The responses were about it not handling weird edge cases, and about how it spelled the end for the all important English/French taxonomy divide, so the dev just went back to he.wiki and took his templates with him. No mention of Lua was made for Taxoboxes again since (in my limited search anyway).
Anyway, these experiments here are just from the data that was already in Wikidata, and as far as I can tell, no one's actually attempted to view it from bottom to top like this before, let alone make it presentable. But it seems there's a good amount of taxonomy data already imported in Wikidata.
Some day, I imagine it might possible for the user to change the timeline on a taxobox to choose which era's taxonomy to view, or to find some way to automatically list alternate taxonomies on Wiktionary, etc. The main thing here for me is the possibility of actually separating data and presentation.
Populating the data is certainly a huge task too, as you say, especially for anything even slightly historical. But if the various projects which use taxonomy data can work together, and only have to agree on where data has come from, and can decide separately which to display, building something that surpasses the existing systems should be achievable relatively quickly. It doesn't have to have everything, it just needs to be better than what's existing.
That said, my test here are very simple, and largely an experiment to see what's possible. The algorithm just picks the first "parent taxon" listed and repeats, without any smarts as yet. It could be interesting to find some area where taxonomies disagree and attempt to get that disagreement stored in Wikidata and add a switch to the module allow flipping between them, but it's all academic at this stage, especially as it can't even run properly anywhere but on Wikidata's own Wiki. It was really just meant to be a brief distraction to answer a "would that work?" kinda of question, but is worth thinking about for some time in the distant future. Pengo (talk) 16:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz: Those rules are pretty good and do help, thanks. As far as I can tell, there's no way to easily find child nodes in Lua/Wikidata right now, so the amount of branching is impossible to tell. Another good reason to go back to just writing code on my local machine where there aren't so many arbitrary limitations. :) Pengo (talk) 16:58, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
We already have some waste of time and needless confusion for our users in presenting in an entry a simple ladder of one-child taxonomic hypernyms in the same way as a branching structure (trees). But it is not always easy to tell whether a ladder will remain a ladder or become a tree, except perhaps by the length of time that it has remained a ladder.
I am already in the process of eliminating mention of subfamilies, supertribes, tribes, and subtribes from the hypernymic portion of the "definition" (in {{taxon}}) of genera and subgeneric taxa and substituting families, which tend to be more meaningful to non-specialists and somewhat more stable, notwithstanding the all-too-frequent conversion of families to subfamilies (and vice versa) that Chuck refers to. I am also substituting family for genus in subgeneric names, especially, subgenus and species.
I had also determined to limit the display of potentially long sequences of taxonomic hypernyms to one sequence leading to some taxon that has a recognizable connection to an English common name, eg, Plantae, Aves, Tetrapoda, Mammalia, Reptilia, Insecta, Crustacea, Mollusca, which hopefully is also stable. In contrast, the dodo sequence above is an example of a sequence that is probably not particularly helpful to a typical user. It conveys merely the idea that taxonomic classification is well developed, at least at the levels above Aves. I would be perfectly happy to leave to others the question of how to present taxonomic data above the rank of order, or even family, in entries above the level of genus.
  • It might be useful to rely on Wikidata for the presentation of complete (ie, like that of dodo above) taxonomic hypernyms via external links and limit ourselves to taxonomic names proximate to the headword. DCDuring TALK 18:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)
I'd be curious how the ladder would look if I limited it to taxa which have some number of common names across languages. That would be relatively easy to do. I agree that displaying everything above "Aves" like in this example has very limited usefulness. I'll have a go at incorporating some of the suggestions some time. Thanks for the feedback. At the very least it would be nice if I could make something that could stand in for a human-edited list. Pengo (talk) 09:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I apologize for the less-than-clear use I made of ladder (contrasted with tree). I was referring to the cases for which a taxon, say, a species, is the sole species for a sequence of higher taxa, eg, genus, family, order. An extreme example is Ginkgo biloba, which is the sole (known extant) member of genus Ginkgo, family Ginkgoaceae, order Ginkgoales, class Ginkgoopsida, division Ginkgophyta. This sequence is an unbranching portion of the taxonomic tree of life.
Ah yep. Monotypic taxa. Gotcha. I just latched onto it because I've been looking for a term for the sequence of hypernyms (to use internally within code, which I'm now calling ladder objects :) ). Pengo (talk) 04:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
  • This implementation like a fairly bad idea to me, because it's a rather outdated view of taxonomy. The biosciences have long since moved into the world of cladistics, wherein taxa are simply hierarchical clades, instead of having subjective labels for each level (e.g. phylum, order, etc) as in the Linnaean system. If we're going to have taxonomic nomenclature, we may as well not categorise it in a way that is in the process of becoming obsolete. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:29, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    Sure, but we are serving a general audience. And, in any event, even most biologists, including systematic taxonomists of almost every school, tend to conserve names. Most of those names retain suffixes that are indications of rank. Take a look at, say, the Angiosperm Phylogeny Website. They have replaced superordinal names (class, etc) with clade names of their own devising (though strongly reminiscent of older-style names), but mostly retained order, family, and subfamily names, no matter how much membership and placement may be revised, and whether or not clades, often unnamed, are inserted between ranked names. Similar practices prevail at the Tree of Life web project. In any event lots of the names in Pengo's listing for Dodo appear unlabeled, ie, have no rank assigned. In my listings they appear as "clades". In principle all retained taxa will eventually be monophyletic, ie, clades. But in paleontology, for example, there is often not enough evidence to make firm assignments of that kind and there remains a need to group and classify specimens, using morphological features only. The Paleontology database tends to retain older taxonomic names to an even greater extent than APG and ToL.
Evidently the process that will lead to the obsolescence of the names that biologists have been using is not actually proceeding quickly enough to render existing names and ranks completely useless.
Finally, there will always be some use for retaining definitions based on obsolete concepts and classifications to make it possible to understand older literature and to help folks who are decades removed from their biology classes to make connections between the names they learned and current ones. DCDuring TALK 06:01, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
It depends what level you're talking about. As I said, higher levels are very abstract and prone to constant reinterpretation and rearrangement- but that's true whether you use clades or ranked heirarchies. Todays clades are tomorrow's polyphyletic relics: remember the edentates? The insectivores? The ungulates? The dicots? Who knew that whales were even-toed ungulates, or that termites were cockroaches?
The closer you get to the species level, though, the more stable taxa are, the more grounded they are in objective reality, and the easier it is to fit them into traditional named hierarchies. I doubt that the levels covered by the taxonomic codes (species-, genus- and family-group ranks) are going to disappear anytime soon. Sure, there are often unranked clades in between, but they're additions, not replacements.
The filtering criteria I suggested shouldn't be applied the same at lower and higher ranks: the preference for un-prefixed ranks only makes complete sense in the family-,genus-, and species-group levels. At the higher levels, the preference for ranks with sister nodes is more important- the first is Linnaean, the second cladistic.
Regardless of the filtering, though, there will always be hierarchies. It doesn't matter whether you call them clades or taxonomic ranks, they're still nodes in a tree structure. I don't see anything wrong with giving them rank names, as long as the actual structure is reflected. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:28, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Relatedly and alternatively, it would be useful to be able to generate clade diagrams on demand from well-maintained, complete taxonomic data ("WMCTD"). I borrowed {{Clade}}, which does that, from WP and applied it in a single entry: Ornithodira. Populating it automagically from WMCTD would be wonderful. How far is Wikidata from being/having WMCTD? DCDuring TALK 15:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
@DCDuring: I thought a cladogram would be excessive, but it doesn't look too bad, or take all that much space really.
I nudged along the discussion of Wikidata "arbitrary access", and there's been a trickle of discussion on the Wikimedia issue tracker for the last week or so (phabricator T49930). It's been added to the roadmap, although currently tagged as "unscheduled", so something will actually happen and how well maintained the taxonomic data is kept once that happens is anyone's guess. Pengo (talk) 05:58, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
When one considers that a Wiktonary-resident cladogram could appear hidden until wanted or a Wikidata-based cladogram could be produced on demand in a pop-up window the visual space taken need not be much of an issue. The new style of systematics makes "coordinate terms" an inadequate label for useful semantic relationships. DCDuring TALK 13:10, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Question 3.25[edit]

This question was posed a few days ago. The question and the answer to it are as follows:


"I have invented a word game and would like a free concise dictionary in the form of a downloadable software database file for inclusion within it. Is there such a file which can be used commercially? The word list I am using for the game is SCOWL and I am hoping to get a dictionary which will contain all the words that are in that word list, so that when a word ((in the form of the link ) is pointed to and clicked, the player will be directed to a short meaning of it.

Thanks Paul"


"See Help:FAQ#Downloading_Wiktionary. You'll have to run a manual comparison against SCOWL; also be aware that we are fairly inclusive of unusual and offensive words: your players might object to some of them if they are not in mainstream dictionaries etc. Equinox ◑ 22:02, 23 February 2015 (UTC)"

 I forwarded the answer to my programmer who replied as follows:

"As far as wikitionary, it's not in text format. Another thing is that it's massively big database. So, I am afraid, it's not feasible to use something like wikitionary. We need to find someone, who provides text (.txt) format of such dictionary. And that too should be concise, in size. Say maximum 5 to 8 mb in size."

Can anyone help me in finding such a dictionary? Thanks for your help thus far.


multi-stream bz2 Wiktionary dumps[edit]

How am I supposed to use multi-stream bz2 Wiktionary dumps? I have downloaded the following files:

enwiktionary-20150224-pages-articles.xml.bz2 enwiktionary-20150224-pages-articles-multistream.xml.bz2 enwiktionary-20150224-pages-articles-multistream-index.txt.bz2

In the dump page (http://dumps.wikimedia.org/enwiktionary/20150224/) it says that *-multistream.xml.bz2 is in multiple bz2 streams, 100 pages per stream. The *-multistream-index.txt.bz2 file contains a list of all the titles of all the pages. Each line is in the format


It seems to me that num1 is the id for a segment, num2 is the id of the page with the title title_string. Since the entire *-multistream.xml.bz2 file is too big when decompressed, I want to only decompress one of the segments of the file to retrieve the page that I'm interested in. Is there a way to do that? I don't see the point of the multi-stream bz2 file if it's impossible to extract only a part of it.

Thanks GA

If you don't get an answer here, I suggest asking on Wikipedia, which has a larger base of contributors and hence a larger base of technically-adept contributors. I imagine it should be straightforward to take knowledge of how to decompress part of a Wikipedia dump and apply it to a Wiktionary dump. - -sche (discuss) 00:56, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
num1 is the byte offset into the -multistream.xml.bz2 file, num2 is the page id. It's not straightforward to do this with command line tools, one approach would be the following: curl http://dumps.wikimedia.org/enwiktionary/20150224/enwiktionary-20150224-pages-articles-multistream.xml.bz2 -r 39191316- | bzcat | less. This would fetch the data from offset 39191316 and then decode it. For a local file you could do: dd if=enwiktionary-20150224-pages-articles-multistream.xml.bz2 bs=1 skip=39191316 | bzcat. (Assuming you use a unix based system). The problem with this approach is that bzcat will keep decoding past the end of the first stream, so you'll end up with more data than needed. I created a small python script to show how you would just extract the data you need. Jberkel (talk) 14:10, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

March 2015


How do you guys type all of these letters that are in other languages? Do you use the windows input on your keyboard?

When you edit a page, you can use the "special characters" dropdown above the edit text-box. Or you can use your operating system's character selector: in Windows, it's called "Character Map", and is available on the Start menu. Or you can add foreign languages to your operating system (in Windows: Control Panel, Region and Language), which might enable certain special features such as pop-up keyboards. Equinox 03:21, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you

A simple answer is that I don't type "all" special letters, but only those used in some languages that I care about (Scandinavian, German, Russian). And for those languages I either have a good keyboard already, or I switch to other keyboard layouts in my operating system software. My physical keyboard has a Swedish layout with keys for ÅÄÖ. To reach the Danish/Norwegian ÆØ, Icelandic ÐÞ, and German ß i use the AltGr in combination with ÄÖDTS (which works fine under Linux). To type Russian/Cyrillic letters, I switch to a Russian keyboard layout. --LA2 (talk) 13:55, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

{{unk.}} again[edit]

Would it be possible to integrate the functioning of this slightly clunky template that continues to lack domcumentation into {{etyl}}? Just {{etyl|unk}} won't do (unk is a valid language code), but some other keyword might.

As has been noted before (see talk page), this is not quite the same as the currently existing functionality {{etyl|und}}. --Tropylium (talk) 01:05, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

{{etyl}} is meant specifically for indicating what language a word originates from; it stands for ETYmology Language. So I don't think it would be appropriate to make this change. —CodeCat 01:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Then the parameter name etyl lang in {{calque}} makes perfect sense: etymology language language.
I always thought etyl was an ugly contraction of ETYmoLogy.--Dixtosa (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
The possible origin of "etyl" as shorthand for "etymology language" is not an impediment to using it to say that the origin of a term is unknown. On the other hand, the fact that unk is the code of Enawené-Nawé might be an impediment: we could use a different keyword, as suggested, e.g. {{etyl|unk.}}, but I would expect people to forget and type {{etyl|unk}}. Already people forget to specify the right language as the second parameter when they add new {{etyl}}s or (especially) copy existing ones from e.g. an English section to some other language's section. - -sche (discuss) 19:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I like this idea, in particular because you could use the etyl syntax of {{etyl|unknown|<lang>}} and still add them to Category:Terms with unknown etymologies by language. JohnC5 19:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
We could also use {{etyl|?|...}}. But I still don't think we should be using this template for that. —CodeCat 20:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
I like {{etyl|unknown}}. Just {{etyl|?}} seems too ambiguous between this and {{etyl|und}}.
I don't follow why this fusion would be objectionable; functionally, {{etyl}} is a template that exists for 1) linking the source language and 2) adding terms to etymological categories. {{unk.}} exists for the second job as well, while the first is in these cases unapplicable. Is there any way in which the functions of these actually clash?
— To be clear, I do not necessarily suggest that {{unk.}} should be entirely depreciated though, if there are people who want to still keep that around as well. --Tropylium (talk) 01:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Someone broke basic functionality again[edit]

Whoever caused WT:ACCEL to generate this bad plural entry (multicompetences), please fix it. Teach a man to fish, and all that. I won't correct "my" errors caused by others' bugs added to something previously working. Equinox 20:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

  • Sorry, I fixed it. See its history for the problem. SemperBlotto (talk) 21:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    It's not fixed: what's this § in competences? Lmaltier (talk) 21:18, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    That appears to be a separate Mediawiki issue (feature?) DTLHS (talk) 21:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Nothing has changed. Still broken. Equinox 22:39, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
The Mediawiki devs added little "§" anchor links to all the headers, so that got the script confused. Fixed. --Yair rand (talk) 23:19, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for dropping by. DCDuring TALK 00:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

voseo vs vos in Template:es-verb form of/subtense-pronoun[edit]

Right now, the following:

{{es-verb form of/subtense-pronoun|person=second|number=singular|voseo=yes|formal=no}}

… displays …


Note that the template uses voseo, which is IMO wrong and inconsistent with other pronouns. voseo only refers to the use of vos as a pronoun, and is not the pronoun. In contrast, is shown rather than tuteo:

{{es-verb form of/subtense-pronoun|person=second|number=singular|voseo=no|formal=no}}

… displays …


Therefore I propose to change Template:es-verb_form_of/subtense-pronoun and friends to make this consistent, by changing voseo to vos in the output.

Timothy Gu (talk) 01:40, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Template:cy-noun behaving oddly[edit]

In this old revision of caer, the plural forms weren't showing up. Should the pl= parameter simply be abandoned and the documentation updated (in which case we need a bot to fix all examples) or can someone diagnose this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. — Ungoliant (falai) 21:27, 7 March 2015 (UTC)


Hi. What's the news with all the Initialisms/Acronyms etc.? I believe we were phasing them out, but I can't find the page explaining it. So, I added a few initialisms and got error messages, which I ignored. What's the deal with them? --Type56op9 (talk) 11:09, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

We should not be adding any new headers: Abbreviation, Initialism, Acronym. We are supposed to have real parts of speech as headers. This often means more than one header is required instead of the to-be-replaced header. DCDuring TALK 11:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Right, I'll change them in the future. --Type56op9 (talk) 12:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

What Happened to Safari Notifications?[edit]

For a short time, Wiktionary was able to send (Echo?) notifications to OS X's Notification Center via Safari. That functionality now seems to have disappeared, but where did it go?
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Is that some Apple thing? Please explain how it worked and we might be able to explain what happened. Equinox 02:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
I don't know the specifics, but, yes, I believe that what I'm referring to had to do with Apple's Push Notifications Service. Somebody here set Wiktionary up so that users could check a box in his or her preferences to have the wiki ping him or her via their device's Notification Center whenever he or she received an Echo notification on-wiki. That checkbox has now disappeared, and I'm wondering where it went and why the functionality that it enabled was disabled. It would be nice to get messages about new on-wiki information via Notification Center instead of through full-blown e-mails!
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 18:19, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
Well, I don't know what "Echo notifications" are, and can't find much on Google, but perhaps you were somehow using the RSS newsfeed for the page? Equinox 22:04, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
'Echo' is the MediaWiki notifications extension. I remember reading somewhere on Wiktionary that somebody had hacked together some way to copy notifications from either Echo or some other on-wiki source and then send them to OS X's Notification Center. And I don't remember it was just for some specific page or not, but my memory could be playing tricks with me.
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 21:38, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
If you're wondering why I'm asking about this, then it's because I want something to reference when I go to Phabricator and file a 'request for enhancement' to include this functionality in more WMF wikis.
— RandomDSdevel (talk) 17:27, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Citations tab with template-preloaded redlink[edit]

I've noticed some IP edits from time to time where they left a citations page empty except for the kind of preloaded material you get when you create the Documentation page for a template I seem to remember someone had reported this before, but every time I checked an entry with no citations page, the redlink looked normal- so I thought it had been resolved.

Just now, I found an example: for the moment, anyway, Talk:হাঁ has the following URL on the Documents tab:


After checking a few other pages without Citations pages, I noticed a pattern: the redlink from the main entry has no preload, but the redlink from the Discussion tab has the preload parameter as above. I went to an entry I created today, clicked on the Discussion tab, looked at the preview for the empty page, and found that the discussion tab had the preload.

Can we fix this? Chuck Entz (talk) 21:50, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. --Yair rand (talk) 21:51, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
I am the person who reported it before; so thanks! Equinox 21:59, 8 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks!! Chuck Entz (talk) 23:02, 8 March 2015 (UTC)

Latinx script[edit]

WT:Scripts claims that this exists "for characters in the Latin Extended-B Unicode block". Yet per WT:List of languages, it mainly seems to be in use for proto-languages. Plenty of languages that use Latin-B letters have just the plain Latn script code (e.g. Hausa, Livonian, !Kung, Vietnamese). Is something amiss here? --Tropylium (talk) 13:24, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

Misbehaviour in Chrome[edit]

If I use Firefox & ΙΕ all is fine - but using Chrome gives the following problems (1) Languages tabs messed up (with that option chosen) (2) pull down tables - eg translations - don't work (and the "Visibility" item in the side menu is missing). I haven't changed any options on Chrome since this started happening.   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 21:46, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

The same problem has just arisen while using Firefox. BUT clearing cookies has made it go away. I have been developing a template family (centered on {{el-conj-table-1a}}) which uses pull down tables - so guess this is the source of my problem - it starts after repeated testing/ using "show preview".   -   Has any one else encountered this problem?   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 08:09, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

solved' - "clearing cookies" in my browser solved this problem - presumably my repetitive views created a buildup of something - causing the problem.   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 16:24, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Ancient Greek adverb template[edit]

Is there an Ancient Greek adverb template? —BoBoMisiu (talk) 00:59, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Probably not - I would expect it to start "grc-adv...", and there seems to be nothing lised in Category:Ancient Greek headword-line templates   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 15:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Module Error at æschynite[edit]

This entry hasn't been edited since it was created in August, but it's had a module error for just the past week or so. It may have something to do edits by User:CodeCat to Module:headword on March 5, but the trail goes through {{fr-noun}} and Module:fr-headword before it reaches Module:headword where the error occurs. If it helps any, removing "?"as the second parameter gets rid of the error (before anyone launches any w:Henny Youngman doctor jokes at me: yes, {{fr-noun}} is supposed to be able to handle "?" as the second parameter). Chuck Entz (talk) 01:46, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:56, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Thank you! It actually took more time for me to post that than for you to make the fix.Chuck Entz (talk) 02:17, 14 March 2015 (UTC)


Is this page formatted and set up correctly?

This term is used, but it is mostly reserved in use by the gaming community. Even there, it is only found in use by a particular niche.

As such, I doubt this term meets our criteria for inclusion. Nevertheless, it is a term that I am fond of, so I thought that I would host it within my userspace.

If it ever does gain enough citations, please do let me know and we can arrange to move it into the mainspace.

However, for now, I just wanted to ask...

Is the page formatted correctly, set up as our pages normally would be? I'm not good with the templates here, so I need the opinion of an expert on that. I tried the best that I could, but I'm not sure if I messed up somewhere or if there was an easier way of doing something that I missed. Tharthan (talk) 13:53, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

It looks okay to me, but I don't understand the definition. What sort of "perspective" are we talking about here; how can a perspective "enter" something? Equinox 14:02, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Blick Winkel is a term that seems to originate (though I can't tell if it originated in German as a secondary use of "Blickwinkel", or if it originated in English as an theoretics expansion upon the simple German "Blickwinkel") in the field of niche theoretics.
From what I can understand (though I myself do not engage in theoretics studies, so I could be missing some details here):

A Blick Winkel is the perspective of a being (or a being that is purely a perspective) that is able to cross interdimensional boundaries, jump into the consciousness of an individual from a given dimension, and perceive things from that individual's perspective. They are not bound to an individual, however, and if that individual dies, they do not die with them.

In the field of video games, the term is used to refer to the player of the game when that individual ends up becoming a sort of character themselves by way of a fourth wall not being present. Often, a Blick Winkel's presence is revealed near to, at, or after the climax of the game.
Does that explanation make sense? Tharthan (talk) 14:23, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
You missed the {{trans-mid}} inside the translation table. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:06, 14 March 2015 (UTC
Fixed. Thanks! Tharthan (talk) 17:33, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Another thing: use the templates {{etyl}} and {{m}}/{{term}} in the etymology, and {{en-noun}} in the HWL. You can get away with bare wikicode in the etymology, but the use of HWL templates is enforced much more strongly.
In case you did it because it’s a prototype: don’t worry, these templates recognise the namespace and won’t add categories to userpages. — Ungoliant (falai) 18:07, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

{{etyl}} use with same language variations[edit]

{{temp|etyl|grc|grc-koi}} outputs: {{etyl|grc|grc-koi}}

The template doesn't let the user differentiate within language families using the definitions found in Module:etymology language/data? WT:ETYM#Stages of Latin states that: "Further, it is useful to differentiate which stage of Latin a borrowing is from – Classical Latin (la), followed by Late Latin (written) (LL. 3rd c.–6th c.) and Vulgar Latin (spoken) (VL. 3rd c.–9th c.), Medieval Latin (ML. 6th c.–c. 1500), and New Latin (NL. c.1500–1900)." It should be the same for Greek. Nevertheless, Latin also has the same result,

{{temp|etyl|la|la-ecc}} outputs: {{etyl|la|la-ecc}}
{{temp|etyl|la-ecc|la-new}} outputs: {{etyl|la-ecc|la-new}}

BoBoMisiu (talk) 14:28, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

What does it mean exactly when a grc-koi word is borrowed from grc? The former is a variety included in the latter. It's like saying that an American English term was borrowed from English. —CodeCat 14:40, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I thought it was like an English etymology being: from Middle English, from Old English. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 17:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
But Middle English is not part of the language we call "English", it's a separate language. Koine Greek is part of Ancient Greek, and we don't treat Koine as a separate language. —CodeCat 18:16, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Then there really is no point in having Koine Greek defined as its own input language in the template either as it is just Ancient Greek. It makes no sense to use it as an input but not as an output to show a developed language. –BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:26, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
You can achieve the display, if not the categorization, by using {{etyl|grc|-}}, yielding Ancient Greek. We put up with this for Latin routinely. DCDuring TALK 19:31, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
BoBoMisiu, are you perhaps simply getting the order of the codes backwards in {{etyl}}? Module:etymology language/data is full of dialects which we find it expedient to admit that terms are derived from (so the codes can occur as the first parameter of {{etyl}}). The dialects are, however, handled under their parent languages' L2 header (so the codes cannot occur as the second parameter of {{etyl}}, as this parameter must be a code found in Module:languages, the module for languages which get their own L2 headers). See e.g. martyr (which uses {{etyl|grc|la}}). - -sche (discuss) 09:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)
No, as you can see above ({{etyl|grc|grc-koi}}), the order is not backwards. My question was about showing progression within the variations, which may span over thousands of years, for example from Ancient Greek words combined several hundred years after they are attested into a new Koine Greek word. Reading through the module, I see that such detail is not possible. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 04:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
I just wrapped your templates in nowiki tags so that this page stops showing up in Category:Pages with module errors. Putting those template there was something like taking an appliance in for service and plugging it in to demonstrate how it emits toxic smoke and shorts out the wall outlet. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
You can actually subst module errors. If you do, then you can remove the module error category and leave only the text. —CodeCat 17:44, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Wow, I'll try to remember not to post templates that way next time. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 20:49, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Bug in the translation editor duplicating translations[edit]

I just spotted this edit: diff. Judging from the edit summary, the user did a balance; but instead of shifting the translation over, it duplicated it. —CodeCat 00:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Could this edit: diff have anything to do with it? Chuck Entz (talk) 01:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

User UPA[edit]

I'm considering starting a bundle of script templates for the w:Uralic Phonetic Alphabet, alongside Category:User IPA. Attempting to create these by reference to {{User script-1}} etc. throws up various module errors, though. Shall I request someone to massage the script modules, or to forgo meta-templating and just design the userboxes by hand? — There is also another minor error that could perhaps be better circumvented by the former route: the meta-templates seem to force a roman type for "icon" glyphs, while UPA is always used in italics. --Tropylium (talk) 01:13, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

The errors appear because UPA isn't a valid script code. Should we have a separate script code for UPA? If we're going to be adding UPA in entries, we may need one. —CodeCat 01:34, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
Active usage of detailed UPA is probably a bad idea, it mainly comes up with source material.
(Although, regardless, we have even e.g. some rather preposterous-looking UPA entries over at Category:Ter Sami lemmas and possibly other similar places.) --Tropylium (talk) 03:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Global User Pages[edit]

When I saw this user page (User:JenifferHomes), I wondered how this user got all of the user boxes then visible to show up, since none of them are allowed on Wiktionary. On closer examination, I discovered that Wikimedia has a relatively new feature that displays content from a centrally-located user page on local user pages for every wiki they edit.

If anyone runs into such a page in the future and needs to block display of Wiktionary-inappropriate content, all you need to do is create a user page with any content in it whatsoever: the global page won't display if there's already a local user page. In this case, I just put an html comment in it so I could save it as an empty page. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Why would this be helpful? Creating blank pages to suppress display of global user pages sounds very unproductive. Also, my understanding is that it's not just all wikis that they edit, it's all wikis, period. --Yair rand (talk) 06:24, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
It depends on the user page- I'm not saying we should do this in every case. Right now we have WT:USER, and the vote that's behind it, but people can get around it by moving everything to Mediawiki and not creating a user page here. This sets up a two-tier system: people with local user pages, who have to follow the rules, and people with global user pages, who don't. We should either repeal our restrictions on permissible user boxes and delete WT:USER, or disallow local display of global user pages that break the rules. Otherwise we're just making hypocrites of ourselves. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:33, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Raw linking text[edit]

Is there a template that will just return a string formatted for linking given a particular language? For instance, if I put {{template X|νεκῠ́οιῐν|lang=grc}}, it would return the string "νεκύοιιν". It seems like such a template should exist. —JohnC5 03:33, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Not {{l}}? DCDuring TALK 12:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)
{{l}} will strip the superfluous diacritics from the link, but not the display: {{l|grc|νεκῠ́οιῐν}} links to νεκύοιιν but still displays νεκῠ́οιῐν (nekúoiin), which doesn't seem to be what JohnC5 wants. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:28, 18 March 2015 (UTC)


Would it be reasonable to give [[Category:Chinese terms needing attention|r]] its own category, like Category:zh-pron usage missing POS? It seems be the reason why the "Chinese terms needing attention" has so many pages in it. —umbreon126 08:15, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Are there implications for Wiktionary of user renaming?[edit]

Many user names are about to be changed as a result of single user login (SUL). If one of them were yours, you would already have been notified. But, an unknown number of those will be for users with significant numbers of contributions. I fear that we will lose a means of making a quick assessment of a contribution, based on our prior experience with a username. This is not as big a problem for pedias as for us, because of our higher ratio of articles to active admits or active white listed contributor. The SUL process cannot be stopped, but we could request reports to help us track problematic registered users and their contributions. Any thoughts? DCDuring TALK 22:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

JavaScript needs to encodeURIComponent cookies instead of escaping them[edit]

When storing cookies, MediaWiki:Gadget-legacy.js uses escape to encode their values. However, this function is deprecated and uses Latin-1 encoding to encode non-ASCII characters. When jquery.cookie.js tries to decode the cookie value, it uses decodeURIComponent which dies with an URIError when encountering such raw Latin-1 characters. This happened to me after the introduction of the “§” anchor links, which got stored in my cookie when they got mixed into the declension heading and I clicked “Show §declensions”. So now, JS is broken for me here on enwikt.

The gadget (and any other JS code) should use encodeURIComponent instead. (And decodeURIComponent instead of unescape.)

See phab:T93187.

--Mormegil (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Jquery cookies are automatically encoded/decoded using encodeURIComponent/decodeURIComponent. To avoid any issue, it is better to always use jQuery for cookies, instead of the deprecated functions in MediaWiki:Gadget-legacy.js. At least we should try to rewrite those functions to use jQuery cookies. — Dakdada 14:22, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Template:Q year= parameter[edit]

This parameter does not seem to work, as seen in the second quote on Iovem lapidem iurare. The transyear= parameter does apparently. Can we fix this? —JohnC5 20:27, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Template:l tr= parameter[edit]

Yet another question for the Pit. It seems that the tr= parameter in {{l}} does not work when it has to override the automatic transcription of some scripts. Gothic does not work (𐌳𐌿𐌱𐍉 (dūbō) should read "dūbō") nor polytonic (ἀνήρ (anḗr) should read "potato salad"). Devanagari does seem to work (नृ (nṛ́)). There are probably others in each category, but I haven't looked for them. Anyone know what the problem is here? —JohnC5 09:03, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It is not a problem, it is a good feature. Some scripts never need manual transliteration. Somewhere there is a list of such scripts, but I don't remember where. --Vahag (talk) 09:56, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
However, WT:Gothic transliteration states that vowel length in Gothic should be marked on u and a if known, and both common practice and {{got-decl-noun-table}} use l for this process. I admit I am hard pressed to think of when one mightneed to override the transliteration for AG, but for Gothic it is definitely necessary. —JohnC5 10:18, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
OK, then Gothic might need to be removed from the override_manual_transliteration list. @ZxxZxxZ:, @CodeCat:, where did you hide that function? --Vahag (talk) 10:57, 20 March 2015 (UTC)


No "~" parameter for {{enm-noun}}? —BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:16, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

French uncountable nouns[edit]

At choucroute, [{fr-noun|f|-}] gives a result that says the word is uncountable but still expects a plural form, and the term gets categorized into Category:French entries needing inflection. I assume there's something wrong at Module:fr-headword; could someone take a look? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:49, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. —CodeCat 15:55, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Dank je wel! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:57, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
Though, actually, I think this particular French noun is countable. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:58, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
It's easy enough to get it to say "(countable or uncountable, plural choucroutes)". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:05, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Automatic Arabic transliteration[edit]

Does anyone know why the automatic Arabic transliteration isn't working in مُجَدَّرَة‎ (pockmarks) (see mujaddara#Etymology)? I'm pretty sure all the diacritics that are supposed to be there are present. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

A left-to-right mark, as usual. DTLHS (talk) 18:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Aha, a sneaky invisible character. Thanks for your help. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:48, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
I recently made a WT:TODO list of entries which contained LTR and RTL marks. Someone could use it and/or make a fresh one, and remove all these marks by bot or at least by AWB. - -sche (discuss) 20:51, 25 March 2015 (UTC)
Some people use them for formatting, so you might break some things. Can we add an edit filter for this? DTLHS (talk) 22:41, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Problem with {{quote-journal}}[edit]

The unambiguous page contains the following:

  1. clear, and having no uncertainty or ambiguity
    • 1965 July, Donald Knuth, “On the Translation of Languages from Left to Right”[1], Information and Control, volume 8, pages 639-707: 
      blah blah blah

Problem: there is a link after the title and on "pages 639-707". The link should only be on the title.

P.S. "pages=#-#" should display with an en dash between the numbers, like this: "pages #–#".

P.S.S. Why does "title=" display with fancy quotes in Wiktionary but not Wikipedia? ~User000name (talk) 04:12, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Language code frs is not valid[edit]

When is someone going to fix this? This problem has been persisting for days, and leads to 100+ entries in Category:Pages with module errors. Benwing (talk) 06:14, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

We consider East Frisian Low Saxon to be a dialect of German Low German, so any frs you encounter should be changed to nds-de. Unless it's being used mistakenly for Saterland Frisian (also called East Frisian), in which case it should be changed to stq. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)
It's more complicated than that, or I would have fixed it by now, myself: East Frisian had several dialects, of which Saterland Frisian is the only survivor, but at least one other of which survived into the last century. Because no one was sure what frs was, until recently, it was pressed into service as the code for Frisian East Frisian. As far as I can tell, most of the uses of the frs code are neither Frisian Low Saxon nor Saterland Frisian, but were taken from reference works such as this one, in which the specific dialect of East Frisian isn't always specified. I've found and fixed a few cases where frs was really Saterland Frisian, but I've been hampered by lack of access to references on Frisian Low Saxon and limited usefulness of sources online for Saterland Frisian. I think we need to create an exception code for East Frisian, and swap it with all of these uses of frs, but mark them for attention so someone with access to the proper sources can sort through them later. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Alphabetical sorting of compounds where confix is used[edit]

There seems to be a problem here, probably with the template used. For example - Category:English words prefixed with thermo-. This isn't the only category where this happens of course, and I have even come across this problem in Norwegian. I think words where the affix template is used are also affected. Donnanz (talk) 12:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Test cases, arguments and page names for modules[edit]

How do I emulate arguments and page names for test cases in modules? Do I have to explicitly code the possibility for module arguments to override page names and template arguments for testing? --Njardarlogar (talk) 21:01, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

{{quote-us-patent}} broken and undocumented[edit]

There is no documentation for the template.

I find the patent, or application, in two locations

I read {{quote-us-patent}} source and follow to the nested {{reference-us-patent}} which redirects to {{R:US-patent}} which seems to be broken, unless if I am not adding the correct parameters. The parameters I used in {{quote-us-patent}} (which are not documented but read from {{R:US-patent}} source) are:

{{quote-us-patent|number=20090209499|type=|title=Apiary veterinary composition|passage=|date=2009-08-20|author=Gyula Orban|page=|url=}}


' 2009-08-20, Gyula Orban, Apiary veterinary composition, US 20090209499 (PDF version):

which has layout problem and broken linking. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 15:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

April 2015

Pashto adjectives[edit]

Hello :) I just want to say in Pashto adjectives their is no category of determining gender or number of an adjective the way that there exists with nouns. Pashto adjectives have 3 genders: 1. (Singular) Masculine e.g. سوړ [cold] 2. (Singular) Feminine e.g. سړه [cold] 3. Neuter [can be used with both Masculine + Feminine Nouns] e.g. ښه [good] Pashto Adjectives also changes number with with nouns: 1. Plural Masculine e.g. ساړه [cold] 2. Plural Feminine e.g. سړې [cold]

Is there anything that can be done about this. Thank You PashtoLover (talk) 18:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the problem actually is. What do you think should be done? —CodeCat 18:28, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
I think PashtoLover is pointing out that we currently provide information on the gender and inflected forms of Pashto nouns but apparently not of adjectives (take a look at احمق and ارزان), even though adjectives also inflect based on masculine / feminine gender (sez Wikipedia, citing a book). - -sche (discuss) 18:48, 1 April 2015 (UTC)


Could someone add a namespace check to the categories? We have a Beer Parlour page in Category:English terms with audio links. Renard Migrant (talk) 23:50, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Double archaics[edit]

Hey. If any bot fancies an easy search-and-replace job, there's a few entries here double-tagged as "archaic" "archaic" - for example these ones --Sucio green (talk) 11:41, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Ah, so that's what "hyperarchaic" means... Equinox 13:31, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
WF is right it's super easy. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:11, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

{{en-archaic second-person singular of}} is so restrictive. I think we should remove the call to {{cx}} from that template rather than remove cx from entries. --Dixtosa (talk) 12:11, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

It's supposed to be only used for archaic second-person singular forms, why wouldn't it be restrictive? Renard Migrant (talk) 17:17, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
@Dixtosa, Renard Migrant: What if some, but not all of these are deemed obsolete, literary, rare, or a combination of things? At the very least, the templates needs a means of suppressing the default label. DCDuring TALK 17:36, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
Why not just use a different template, like {{form of|literary second-person singular}}? Renard Migrant (talk) 17:37, 5 April 2015 (UTC)
One reason would be that one might hope to use existing knowledge of more general templates rather than ones that were custom to a narrow set of applications. I don't have a problems with a bot coming in a converting them to a more specific template, though I would hope it could be done without leaving 6,000 mistaken entries, ie, the case at hand. DCDuring TALK 23:00, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Missing forms[edit]

Modifying Module:en-headword, I reckon we could find thousands of missing English plurals, adjective and verb forms. --Sucio green (talk) 10:57, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

How to stop AWB following redirects[edit]

I would like to use AutoWikiBrowser to replace category directs like Category:Jèrriais auxiliary verbs with {{movecat|Norman auxiliary verbs}}. It's not very hard to do using regexes however, AWB keeps following the direct and tries to edit Category:Norman auxiliary verbs which isn't the category which needs movecat! How do I stop it doing this?

PS see {{movecat/documentation}} for why is a good idea, it categorizes in Category:Category redirects which are not empty which is very useful when trying to track down remaining entries. Renard Migrant (talk) 14:10, 4 April 2015 (UTC)


Can someone look at Template:es-adv? The template automatically qualifies all adverbs as being uncomparable, but some are of course comparable (like rápidamente) but there doesn't seem to be a way of showing that. --Recónditos (talk) 09:41, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

I can't edit it, but I'd go from switch to if. Better to use if when only two possibilities. You're right that it claims the default is comparable but it's the opposite; the code for the default is wrong. Renard Migrant (talk) 17:16, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

currently: not comparable
should be:comparable
error: {{#switch:{{{comp|}}}|n|-|=not comparable|#default=comparable}} --Dixtosa (talk) 18:07, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

{{head}} is linking wrong[edit]

It doesn't recognise that : (colon) and (apostrophe), among other punctuation marks, are used as letters in various Amerindian orthographies, and is therefore trying to link the constituents. For example, see the headline of the Han entry tsà’. Can anyone fix the template? It's rather important if we want to even be able to use {{head}} for a large number of languages. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:00, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Ideally we shouldn't be using punctuation characters as letters, we should be using their "modifier letter" equivalents (e.g. ʼ instead of or ' and instead of :), so tsà’ should be moved to tsàʼ. In the meantime, though, the easiest way to fix it would be to just add |head=tsà’ to force the template to recognize the whole string as the headword. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:59, 7 April 2015 (UTC)
Ideally? Ideally we should use whatever characters people who write in the language in question actually use, not more obscure Unicode offerings (or soft redirects when the two forms are noticeably different but one is considered nonstandard, like using 1 for the palochka). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:22, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Hän has about 10 elderly speakers left; I strongly doubt any of them has ever written Hän on a computer. But even for better attested languages your suggestion seems like a very bad idea. We'd have to make entries for things like English don`t and Italian citta' and German muessen and l as a variant spelling of 1 and all sorts of monstrosities people commit when they don't know or care about proper typographic style. The whole reason ʼ exists as a separate Unicode point at all is for cases like this: when a language has something that looks like Apostrophe.svg but functions as a letter rather than as a punctuation mark. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:48, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
@Angr: Firstly, I said "people who write in the language", not speakers; for Hän, that principally means linguists who have described it. More importantly, you seem to be missing the fact that we are descriptivist, not prescriptivist. In fact, since you know German, I urge you to create the entry for meussen, because I checked Google Books and it passes CFI. You may personally think of it as a monstrosity, but people use it, and it therefore qualifies as an entry, presumably as a kind of soft redirect. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:47, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
Even the linguists who have described it have certainly mostly either written it by hand or by typewriter, and even written by computer, once it's printed out you can't tell the difference between ʼ and ’. That's why the descriptive vs. prescriptive argument is a red herring: as far as human beings are concerned there's no difference between tsà’ and tsàʼ. Only the software knows the difference, and there's nothing "prescriptivist" about using the character the software will treat correctly. We really shouldn't be using the curly apostrophe ’ in entries at all, because we've decided to use the typewriter apostrophe ' for the punctuation mark (e.g. don't), and the modifier letter ʼ should be used in any instance, in any language, where it functions as a letter. The curly apostrophe should only be used in hard redirects like don’tdon't (and, in theory, ajaa’ajaaʼ though I don't know if we have any such redirects in practice). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:26, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I agree with Angr that the "descriptive vs prescriptive" argument is largely misplaced. If the documents we are citing words from are printed, we can't tell (unless we have the electronic copies they were printed from) whether they use the punctuation codepoint or the letter codepoint, and we should assume they used the codepoint the software treats correctly. If the documents are typewritten or handwritten, no codepoint was used; it's up to us to decide which one best represents the type-/handwritten letter, and we should use the codepoint the software treats correctly. Only if we are dealing with durably archived electronic media that unambiguously use the punctuation codepoints should we have entries to cover that, and even then, it may be sufficient for those entries to be hard or soft redirects: compare and cafe' (see Talk:cafe'). Muessen is an entirely different kind of thing and should have an entry using Template:de-umlautless spelling of like fuer. Don`t could, I hope, be handled by whatever auto-redirect gadget handles long s. - -sche (discuss) 21:00, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Proper categories for borrowed English first names in Chinese[edit]

Please suggest/fix categorisation for entries like 阿道夫 (Adolph, Adolf) and 艾麗絲艾丽丝 (Alice). Category:zh:English female given names has an error. There's a bunch of proper noun entries in need of conversion to the new Chinese format, which are all surnames or first names here: Category:Mandarin proper nouns in simplified script. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz:. Thanks! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:20, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
You're welcome. The problem was that name categories aren't topical categories, so you can't have "zh:". I've created all the categories and parent categories needed for the two entries. I think you can figure out the rest for other languages. The parent categories use {{poscatboiler}}, but "derived from" name categories don't have a template, that I know of, so I just put:
[[Category:Chinese male given names]]
[[Category:Chinese terms derived from English]]
[[Category:Chinese female given names]]
[[Category:Chinese terms derived from English]]
When creating a parallel category for another language, just change the language name, and you've got it. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks again. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:53, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Rukhabot and interwikis[edit]

Rukhabot hasn't worked for nearly three months and User:Ruakh seems out of reach. What's happening with interwikis? Any other bots? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:55, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Sorry about that. It's running now.
Are there any more-active Wiktionarians who know (and like) Perl and would be interested in taking over the bot?
RuakhTALK 15:29, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
I don't have experience running a bot, but know (and don't mind) Perl. Jberkel (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
@Ruakh: Thank you and welcome back. :)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:55, 9 April 2015 (UTC)
@MalafayaBot:? Renard Migrant (talk) 21:25, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

Why don't we have the wikidata support?Dixtosa (talk) 20:15, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

This question has come up many times: the short answer- interwiki politics. Wikidata wants to do what they see as a comprehensive solution rather than the obvious, straightforward solution that we would prefer. There's also some nitpicking about different apostrophes used by different wiktionaries, and that sort of thing. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:23, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
I do not understand. How can Wikipedia be more structured than us? Actually, the opposite is true: Wikipedia is looser, more general, for example an article in X wiki can be a section on Y wiki;
There is one concept -> one entry in Wikidata; One word -> one entry in Wikidata.
The only situation when Wikidata will not be of any use is if X and Y wiktionaries have different interwikis. Does this happen?--Dixtosa (talk) 20:59, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


Well, removing wikimedia's one of the ids (talking about p-cactions) is really not a clever idea. Some userscripts depend on it.

Also, the id ca-watch is not present if the current page is watchlisted. So, please, change it to

jQuery(function( $ ) {
	var links = jQuery("#p-cactions li").remove();

--Dixtosa (talk) 20:08, 11 April 2015 (UTC)


Is nobody willing to run an auto-format bot? Category: Requests for autoformat is running into the tens of thousands now. Renard Migrant (talk) 21:16, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Template:obsolete spelling of[edit]

{{obsolete spelling of}} does not provide automatic categorization, i.e. Category:English obsolete terms or Category:English obsolete forms. @-sche: pointed out that using {{term-context|obsolete|lang=en}}, since the term is obsolete, with {{obsolete spelling of}} produces visual double-labelling in the entry. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:27, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

It does automatically categorize in Category:English obsolete forms (or the corresponding other-language categories) if people remember to set lang=. (Otherwise, it categorizes into the hidden cleanup category Category:Language code missing/form of.) - -sche (discuss) 17:49, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
@-sche: TVM —BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:15, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Synonym of[edit]

The template {{synonym of}} complains if I omit or misspell the lang= parameter. But if I spell it correctly it ignores it. Is this deliberate? SemperBlotto (talk) 15:18, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

No it does not ignore it. It creates a proper link (e.g. #Italian) using the langcode. Dixtosa (talk) 16:17, 16 April 2015 (UTC)
OK. I had not noticed that. SemperBlotto (talk) 16:24, 16 April 2015 (UTC)


For some reason, I can't edit ad though I can edit the larger a. I'm trying to correct the fault header in Old French 'Preposition' for the verb form of avoir, but I can't do it. Renard Migrant (talk) 18:17, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

Probably an ad blocker. Someone else asked this recently. —CodeCat 18:31, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that happened to me too until I went to ad, then clicked on the AdBlockerPlus icon in my menu bar and selected "Disable on this page only". —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:25, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes that's done it. Very odd though! Renard Migrant (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
It's kind of amusing, if you think about it. The adblocker doesn't know the difference between an ad and a mention of the word ad. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:05, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Maybe they should change the name to "Ad"BlockerPlus... Chuck Entz (talk) 21:21, 18 April 2015 (UTC)
I posted this as an issue on an adblockplus.org/forum/.... —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:06, 24 April 2015 (UTC)
A stop gap measure is to add this custom filter wiktionary.org#@#.page-ad (see here), I think it will get added to the affecting filter list eventually. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 20:04, 24 April 2015 (UTC)


Could template {{quote-book}} be made to have a line and a lines parameter? Not all texts are in page form, such as epic poems. Also line and lines need to be separate to avoid things like lines 21 and line 21-24, which are both wrong. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:42, 19 April 2015 (UTC)

List entries from a category and all its subcats[edit]

Today I needed some lists of male and female given names. However, Category:English male given names is split into subcategories (from Hebrew, from Arabic, etc.) and it does not seem possible to view all names from all of those categories in a single list. That's a pity. The same applies to e.g. animals, where they are split into subcats by mammal, reptile, and so on. I can imagine users wanting complete lists of things and sub-things, so we should think about somehow implementing a mechanism to do this. Equinox 10:05, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Good idea. I hope it can be done in real time for all categories that have subcategories, but we could do dump-processing to generate selected lists of that kind. DCDuring TALK 13:18, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Abbreviation in Russian[edit]

It seems that there's an issue in the Russian abbreviation entries. It doesn't have its own headword-line template. See also Talk:прил.. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 11:36, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

"Abbreviation" is no longer considered a valid part of speech. If, as in this case, the term abbreviated is a noun, then the POS should be ===Noun===, not ===Abbreviation===. This is true for all languages, not just Russian. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:49, 23 April 2015 (UTC)
This might be late, but really thank you for this piece of info. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 11:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Serious help needed with this template[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Information desk/2015/April.

I am currently working on Pashto conjugations, declensions and adding word + categories. Making templates was easy for me until this: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Template:ps-conj-simp-irregular-w/o-peculiar3rdperson I entered the code normally but somehow it is not appearing correctly. Can someone please help Adjutor101 (talk) 16:28, 23 April 2015 (UTC) Solved by Dixtosa Adjutor101 (talk) 16:40, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Vowel lengthening doesn't work in ru-IPA?[edit]

Based on гении, the IPA of this word appears to have "ɪɪ", but I think it should be like "ɪː". I know that gemination (gem=y) is for consonants and that's it. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 11:53, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

I prefer [ˈɡʲenʲɪɪ]. You can think of double vowels in Russian both ways - long or duplicated. To my ear, there are no long vowels in Russian, just their duplications. I also pronounce коопера́ция (kooperácija) as [kəəpʲɪˈrat͡sɨjə], not [kəːpʲɪˈrat͡sɨjə] but "ː" is commonly used in such cases. To be honest, I don't know why. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:13, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
That's an interesting way of seeing this. I think it's because Russian doesn't lengthen its vowels. I still prefer using [ː] because [ɪɪ] might give an impression like [ɪʔɪ], and this might be because my first language is Korean. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 14:47, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
There's really a very simple test for this. Is it two syllables or one? —CodeCat 15:07, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
I think it's two syllables, although there may not be a /ʔ/ sound between them or just a very slight one. Note that stressed double vowels get the second vowel stressed, e.g. Авраа́м IPA(key): [ɐvrɐˈam]. There's no difference in pronunciation of "по оши́бке" ("in error") or "коали́ция" - as [-əɐ-]. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 15:21, 25 April 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps [ɪ] is the only unstressed near-closed vowel that can be placed together twice like [ɪɪ]. I never heard of [ʊʊ] in Russian, unless if it's in a rare loanword. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 02:54, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
The same will happen with two "уу" in a row, e.g. "Суунду́к", a small river in Russia (yes, it's a borrowing): [sʊʊnˈduk] If they are on a stressed syllable, then they would be [ʊˈu] but I don't remember such an example. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:19, 27 April 2015 (UTC)
But now, I agree with you: there are no long vowels in Russian, just duplication. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 10:35, 27 April 2015 (UTC)