Template talk:grc-ipa-rows

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Would it be possible to change links in the template from [[:w:IPA chart for English]] to
[[:w:Ancient Greek phonology]]
[[:w:Koine Greek phonology]]
[[:w:Ancient Greek phonology]]
? Maro 18:51, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

For the time-being, I think it would be best to stick with {{IPA}}, at least until the current discussion concludes. If we still can't link to Ancient Greek phonology, then yes, we may want to switch. However, if we can stick to using the same IPA template as everyone else, so much the better. Future updates will then affect grc entries. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:59, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Dubious content[edit]

I came here from μῦθος, which has:

This is rather dubious, to my knowledge and also according to w:Koine Greek phonology and w:Byzantine Greek. I don't have an issue with the Classical pronunciation except that it gives far too much detail for a historical pronunciation. The θ in Koine should be /θ/. The ῦ in Byzantine Greek should be /i/, at least for the greater portion of the period in question.

I have grave doubts about the utility of this template, as it makes spectacularly accurate claims without providing any sort of verifiable reference. It may make sense to give a basic pronunciation guide for Old Greek forms, but these should certainly be phonological, not closely phonetic, say "/'múː̀tʰos/ ~ /'my:θos/" which would span all of antiquity, say 800 BC to AD 500, but not Byzantine Greek (AD 500-1500). Dbachmann 07:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

There are indeed some problems with this template, and I have not gotten around to giving it a good working over. I think all of your specific suggestions are correct, or at least better than what's given. My impression is that the pronunciations given in the template represent what the stodgiest person might have sounded like at the very beginning of the era named. In other words, they aren't completely wrong (the pronunciations given were probably uttered in the eras named), but they're not very representative. However, the phonological development of Ancient Greek is actually quite well known, largely due to its great sphere of influence, and subsequent copious amount of borrowings (both in and out) and translations. I think that we can make some distinct improvements, but I don't think we need to be any more vague to stay well within established linguistic consensus. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


Would someone please make a documentation subpage for this template so people know how to use it? Thanks! —Angr 15:21, 28 May 2012 (UTC)

I second Angr's concern, and I wouldn't mind it if the documentation explained how it works technically as well. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:06, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

The documentation is at Category:Ancient Greek IPA tokens. Perhaps it should be moved to a location more easily found. As for how it works, this is not normally documented, but I can at least explain it. The template is surprisingly simple. It simply calls multiple instances of {{grc-ipa-row}} (currently five instances), with different time-period codes. Each instance of {{grc-ipa-row}} calls its time-period helper template (for example, {{grc-ipa-cla}}) for each parameter it's passed. The time-period helper templates are simply big switches; you pass them "th" and they pass back "tʰ" or "θ", etc. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:18, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
I've moved the documentation to Template:grc-ipa-rows/doc. —Angr 12:00, 20 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)


Is there a reason why the "ππ" in Φίλιππος is transcribed as "p̚p"? The no audible release diacritic makes little sense here, this is an instance of gemination (i.e. "pː" or "pp"). Anon. 09:37, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. I will put removing that on my list of things to do, however I don't promise that it will be done anytime soon. If you're interested in doing it yourself, feel quite free to do so. If you're wondering how, you'd have to go to {{grc-ipa-cla}}, {{grc-ipa-koi}}, {{grc-ipa-koi2}}, and {{grc-ipa-byz}}, find instances where there is something like |pp=p̚p, and change it to |pp=pp or |pp=pː (it looks like a number of double-consonant tokens have this feature). Please ask if further clarification is needed. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 11:23, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Really, this is kind of ridiculous... it should be rewritten in Lua. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:57, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Would Lua be more efficient for the servers? Server demands are something I've always been conscious of, but never had enough knowledge to assess. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:15, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Almost certainly in this case. But if you want to get an expert opinion and/or help converting templates to Lua, you know where to ask. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

Suppress ancient pronunciation[edit]

What should I do if I want to give pronunciation for a word that is not attested in classical Greek but only, say, from the Hellenistic or early Byzantine period? Or conversely a Homeric or classical term that fell out of use in Koine? It would seem anachronistic to give the full list of projected pronunciations in such cases. --Dbachmann (talk) 11:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree there should be some way to suppress the pronunciation for an era before the word existed, but I don't see a problem in keeping a medieval pronunciation for a Homeric word, since presumably even people in the Middle Ages read Homer, and presumably used their familiar pronunciation when they did so, much as modern Shakespearean actors pronounce Shakespeare in RP rather than using Elizabethan-era pronunciation. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:24, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

LlywelynII un-deprecated this template[edit]

@ObsequiousNewt, CodeCat: It seems LlywelynII has removed the deprecation from this template. I prefer {{grc-IPA}} and would hate to see this template being added to more entries. Any thoughts? —JohnC5 00:17, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an Ancient Greek editor, so I'm probably not the best person to ask. But I do think that the old template is more useful in that it gives more information. However, I don't agree with LlywelynII's methods here; he should have asked around instead. —CodeCat 00:19, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Sorry for pulling you into this, CodeCat. I guess I thought of you because I value your opinion and because of the discussion of making changes to {{grc-IPA}} that we had a while ago (which does actually need to get fixed, btw). —JohnC5 00:40, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it's a great idea to have people who aren't Ancient Greek editors come in and make sure it's still comprehensible to the rest of us. In any case, if there was a discussion and an official depreciation for this template, go ahead and link to it from here so people can see that. Otherwise, there shouldn't be a depreciation tag on this template. (Although see below: if grc-IPA is shorter and includes this format already, I agree there's nothing wrong with using it instead.) — LlywelynII 04:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Also, don't the two templates give the same amount of information? You just have to expand grc-IPA? —JohnC5 00:41, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Ah. I didn't see that. As with CodeCat, my first thought was that this template is obviously superior to the ugly and less informative treatment at {{grc-IPA}}. If it easily expands into the exact same format, there's obviously no reason to have identical templates or to use the one with less functionality. That said, is there any way to move the "expand" command leftwards, so it shows up right next to the last entry and is more obvious? No one seeing /x/ > /y/ > /z/ for the first time will get precisely what's being shown. — LlywelynII 04:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)