Wiktionary:Information desk/2021/December

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← November 2021 · December 2021 · January 2022 → · (current)

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Mistranslation?

Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Tea_room/2021/December#Mistranslation_(Tagalog_anomalya).

Splitting/naming of Category:American Chinese, Category:Australian Chinese

Reflecting two distinctly different social classes of immigrants, I recently created two subcategories, Category:American (1980–) Chinese and Category:American (–1980) Chinese.

@The Editor's Apprentice has proposed a renaming to Category:Pre-1980 American Chinese and Category:Post-1980 American Chinese, but also still has reservations regarding the year, if I understand correctly; see Category talk:American Chinese. I do not have any particular attachment to the current name either.

Category:Australian Chinese also needs a split (貓本／猫本 (Māoběn) is a neologism, for example), and coordination would be good. (@Tooironic — any ideas?)

Neither of us are experts, so we welcome further input.

—Suzukaze-c (talk) 00:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

To clarify, my reservations are of two kinds. First, I wonder if the split is best captured/described by referencing a specific year or if there is a method that references something other than a year that better describes the split. Second, if the split is best captured by referencing a year, how should the year be chosen? —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 03:36, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c It doesn't seem that this discussion has become very active. I am thinking it might be worth pinging some Chinese-language editors who have relevant experience or knowledge, but I myself am not familiar with who those might be. If you are more familiar, would you be willing to notify some other editors of this discussiona and more directly ask for their input? —The Editor's Apprentice (talk) 02:38, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Editing Wiktionary

I would like to acquire information on how create items on Wiktionary and how to edit Wiktionary — This unsigned comment was added by James Rhoda (talk • contribs) at 15:48, 5 December 2021 (UTC).

I added our welcome template to your talk page with all the information you need to get started. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:12, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

se#Spanish

Please take a look: "Lua error: not enough memory. See Wiktionary:Lua memory errors for more information". 90.154.71.39 19:46, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

90.154.71.39, thanks for alerting us. Unfortunately, this is a problem with the software and can't be fixed locally. E.g. see a. We recently had a vote that was relevant to this issue but ended with no clear consensus. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:45, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

l-vocalization in American English

If l-vocalization occurred after /æ/, would it just merge with /aʊ̯/? It seems self-apparent in words like Albert and shall, but what about pre-vocalically? Would mallet be [mæwɪt̚] or [maʊ̯ɪt̚] ? Dngweh2s (talk) 01:22, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

The myth on post-1898 Tagalog and Cebuano borrowings from Spanish

It's not just something one former Cebuano editor has been believing, but I think it's quite a common myth for ordinary Filipinos that many post-1898 Spanish borrowings in Tagalog or Cebuano which are cognate with the English are claimed to be just English derivatives, where most dictionaries for those languages mostly agree on a Spanish origin for those. The myth is partly true as in the case of pseudo-Hispanisms (e.g. imahe) words created from adding Spanish-derived affixes to an existing Spanish or English loanword (e.g. basketbolista, kritisismo) and some English loans whose pronunciation is altered in a similar way to how pseudo-Hispanisms come to being (e.g. moske from English mosque), but this misconception on etymology – which I sometimes encounter on FM radio talk shows where code-switching between the first language and English is common (e.g. when a host says a Tagalog loanword from Spanish which is cognate with the English, for example, selebrasyon for celebration, and they'll claim after the Tagalog is just the English rendered into Tagalog) – do really make me angry; the many obvious Spanish borrowings in Category:Cebuano terms derived from English is the biggest manifestation of the myth here. That claim also contradicts the actual history of Spanish following the Philippine Revolution and American colonization, where it remained the second language for Filipinos until the mid-20th century, and the continuing influence of Spanish still being apparent in contemporary Tagalog and Cebuano. Anyone agree on this? -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:26, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

@Austronesier, Mar vin kaiser? -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:27, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Adding to the above, I can see a similar case with some Indonesian borrowings from Dutch (esp. those borrowed post-independence), which ordinary Indonesians and some commentators have falsely claimed to be English borrowings. The myth is party true with the case of English borrowings which where altered as part of standardization (e.g. the use of -asi for English -ation, so transportasi from English transportation). -TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 06:49, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@TagaSanPedroAko: Yes. --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 08:12, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Any scholarly sources to prove the existence of this myth? Print Cebuano dictionaries that provide etymology? I mostly look into KWF's online dictionary for etymology (they also cover Cebuano), but it's questionable at some entries, and Cebuano has a de facto spelling standard that differs from KWF's 2014 guidelines (i.e. the system used by Bisaya magazine and also adapted by DepEd for use in materials for Cebuano mother-tongue education, see http://bismag.pbworks.com/w/page/9015814/Lagda-Sa-Espeling). It's mostly like the KWF standard, but is kind of different in some aspects, some that might be worth discussing in another Cebuano appendix.-TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 08:46, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser I just created an appendix on Cebuano spelling, which discusses the standard spelling in the Lagda sa Espeling used by Bisaya magazine and Cebuano MLE materials by DepEd Region VII. From what I read, I think it's clear most of the Cebuano words in question being falsely claimed to be from English should be easily considered to be from Spanish; however, Cebuano has its fair share of pseudo-Hispanicisms as well, and there seems to be mistakes in the Lagda on the etymology of some words (some of which taken as fact and added as the etymology here). What I can say to be contributory to the myth is Spanish being increasingly seen as a foreign language in the Philippines since independence, plus the many Latinate words in English, most of which also have Spanish cognates (a parallel situation can also be said of more recent Indonesian loanwords from Dutch being falsely claimed to be from English as well, due to English and Dutch having similar Latinate loans, and Dutch being a foreign language for Indonesians since it was not imposed upon them by their Dutch colonial administrators). --TagaSanPedroAko (talk) 11:07, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

porte-bonheur in italics

I can find porte-bonheur in English text but it always seems to be in italics, does that make it an English word or not? None Shall Revert (talk) 20:04, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

It is very common to find terms from other languages in italics when reading English text. Occasionally, this is done for words that have been totally adopted into English but the author is being fancy (this seems to be particularly true for French) or because the author is trying to make it explicit that this term is from another language or culture (e.g. “While walking in the Mexican market, I came across the most delicious taco of my life, alongside a something the street vendor called chile de nogada that smelled amazing.”: most English speakers would know what a taco is, very few of them would know what a chile de nogada is). I reckon if you are exclusively seeing this italicized, it has not been adopted by anglos yet. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:10, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Quote a film

I want to add a citation from a film, is there a way, or is it a bad idea? General Vicinity (talk) 15:44, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Never mind, I found template:quote-av --General Vicinity (talk) 15:49, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

idea

hi my name is kellby kitson and my idea is creating a dictionary and a textbook and a formula method all into one. — This unsigned comment was added by 2600:1700:3d90:49f0:88ee:b190:d736:733 (talk).

Welcome, Kellby. Here at Wiktionary, we're focused on the dictionary part but if you make an account here you will automatically have one at Wikibooks, which is focused on making textbooks. Not sure exactly what you have in mind for a formula method but you have general learning resources, they will probably fit at Wikiversity. Let me know if you need help. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:43, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Preloaded templates

Is it possible to create a stub from redlink translations like Zeugenstand at stand? The empty creation form does promise "preloaded templates", which only leads to the search resulting in stand. ApisAzuli (talk) 18:27, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

No, since translation templates need to be as simple as possible, and they also contain no information about anything other than the target term and its language and possibly gender. DTLHS (talk) 18:43, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

What does 'SOP' stand for, and what does it mean?

I've seen this term being used in RFD and RFV discussions, and to partake in these debates I need to know what it stands for and why users use it, because I've seen people say things like 'Seems SOP to me' and 'Probably SOP'. User:PanicAtYeeDisco (talk) 17:38, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

It stands for 'sum of parts' see WT:SOP --General Vicinity (talk) 17:46, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

@PanicAtYeeDisco: These things are explained at Wiktionary:Glossary. Equinox ◑ 02:09, 3 January 2022 (UTC)