Wiktionary:Information desk/2021/November

discussion rooms: Tea room • Etym. scr. • Info desk • Beer parlour • Grease pit ← October 2021 · November 2021 · December 2021 → · (current)

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How to link to something with {{}} in its name?

Experiment here. There are some discussions with {{temp|foo}} in their name and linking directly to them is done by appending #{{foo}} to the URL. I don't know how to do that with [[]]. Fytcha (talk) 16:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Special:Permalink/64515059#{{IPA}}. 70.175.192.217 16:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

@70.175.192.217: Thank you, appreciate the help! Fytcha (talk) 17:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Semantic roles, arguments and cases

What is the proper way to indicate in an entry how a verb maps its semantic roles onto its arguments (e.g. to indicate that whereas English like takes an experiencer subject, Spanish gustar takes a stimulus subject and an experiencer indirect object), what prepositions it governs, what cases it assigns and the like, in order to help readers understand how to use it (and not leave them to deduce such information from the usage examples, which might be insufficient for figuring out the full argument structure)? For example, for indicating case, German eignen uses one kind of notation (square brackets after the labels, Icelandic eiga uses another (the information is inside the labels), and Hungarian vár uses a third (plain brackets after the definition). I want to add such information for Macedonian, so I was wondering if there are norms or if I can come up with my own system? Going back to like and gustar, the argument structure of the latter seems to be explained in a rather lax way. Martin123xyz (talk) 14:10, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's a single prescriptive norm, just a lot of diversity and creativity as you have seen. I've recently been tending towards providing info about arguments and cases as tersely as possible in {{q}}, {{lb}} or {{tlb}}, with a {{uxi}} (and/or a Usage Note) if necessary (e.g. see recently added Ukrainian impersonal verbs and Ukrainian predicatives), but I don't put my practices forward as the basis for an editorial standard! I suspect that encapsulating this contextual info in a template such as {{q}} (instead of just within plain brackets) would help webscrapers to distinguish it from the meanings themselves, but I'm not sure. It would be great to get input from others on this. (P.S. Hungarian has {{hu-case}} but I haven't seen an equivalent of this among Slavic languages.) Voltaigne (talk) 00:14, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

If Hungarian has {{hu-case}}, perhaps I could ask someone to code something similar for Macedonian, except that it would not be about case, since Macedonian has lost its cases except in pronouns and the vocative, but about prepositions and grammatical functions (subject, object, indirect object, completive clause, subjunctive clause etc.). However, I personally think that the best solution would be to introduce a new header, called something like "argument structure" or "subcategorization" (in reference to generative, Chomskyan syntax) and introduce such information there. Unfortunately, the community shies away from discussions about technical, grammatical topics which are not of an etymological character, so it would be pointless to bring this up in the Beer Parlour. For the time being, I think I'm going to write the information in question under Usage Notes. If a new header is ever created, the information can be moved there. Martin123xyz (talk) 09:07, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

English pages for Chinese characters: What do the dagger symbols mean at the beginning of a definition?

Take for example https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/耳 section 2.2.2, "Etymology 1", there are 7 definitions and 4 of them begin with the † character.

I haven't been able to find any key or legend to understand how to interpret what that means.

Please help me out with this? Thanks! — This unsigned comment was added by 2601:644:4301:40a0:2de3:af38:bbf5:d4b4 (talk).

They are obsolete senses. The {{†}} template used to offer title text, but that seems to be broken now. There is an open discussion about deleting this template. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 20:51, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

What does "‡" mean? The page (Template:zh-no-solo) just says it needs documentation. Does it mean "super-obsolete" or something?

Btw, I was finally able to figure out what '⁜' meant from your comment, which is what I was actually trying to find out. So thanks! - I was able to figure out the single-dagger thing from googling after looking up the Unicode character name. It's surprisingly difficult to look up "dictionary symbols" in google, lmao. 2600:1700:750:F010:4DB2:6AC6:1071:48B4 02:25, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

You can see the title text if you edit—i.e., view the source of—the templates.

• {{zh-obsolete}} (†): “Obsolete sense in Modern Standard Chinese—may be preserved in fossilised compounds and expressions or other varieties of Chinese.”
• {{zh-historical-dict}} (‡): “This sense is per the record found in one or more historical dictionaries. It does not necessarily have citations.”
• {{zh-no-solo}} (⁜): “Obsolete sense as a 'stand-alone character' in modern standard Chinese. May be preserved in compounds and idiomatic expressions.”

J3133 (talk) 10:05, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Why is Elefanten in Category:IPA_pronunciations_with_invalid_IPA_characters?

When I edit the article and press "Show preview" then there's no errors being displayed (which is how this template usually signifies which characters are wrong). Fytcha (talk) 15:11, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Looks like it was the IPA in {{rhyme}} – Jberkel 15:21, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. Maybe we should make it such that {{rhyme}} also displays errors in preview mode like {{IPA}}. Fytcha (talk) 15:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

New category

Hi

I want to create a category for all types of tapes (electrical tape,), but I don't know i which categories to include it. Can anybody help me? --Vivaelcelta (talk) 22:38, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The tricky part is deciding where it goes in the category tree- what is it a subcategory of? An anthropolgist once said that a chimpanzee by itself (i.e. without a social context) is "half a chimpanzee". In the same way, a category without a place in the larger category hierarchy is half a category.

Also, how many entries are likely to belong to this new category? A Wikimedia category is a navigational device: it should be used to find other entries that have something in common. If you have only one or two entries, you might as well use "See also" and link to them directly.

If you can answer those two questions, it will be easy to create the category. Chuck Entz (talk) 23:56, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

What do you want to include? Any thin strip of material, like a ribbon or bandage (including things as diverse as e.g., magnetic tape, police tape, measuring tape)? Or specifically adhesive tapes? 70.175.192.217 00:09, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz:. Sorry. I want to include: adhesive tape, sellotape, sticky tape, Scotch tape, insulating tape, electrical tape, duck tape, surgical tape, medical tape, masking tape, double-sided tape and more. I have to think about it and look for it.

Yes. The problem is deciding where is goes in the category tree xd. This is my question. --Vivaelcelta (talk) 01:44, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Category:Tools seems appropriate. It contains subcategories such as "Fasteners" (which includes paperclip, staple) and "Stationery". Adhesive tapes could definitely be listed alongside such items.

I could also see an argument for putting it in Category:Materials, but I'm not sure. "Adhesives" (which would include glue and such) are definitely a material, but adhesive tape might be regarded as a combination of adhesive material and a backing material rather than a material in its own right. if you were to make Category:Adhesives, then "Adhesive tape" could be a subcategory of that though. 70.175.192.217 03:15, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia places Category:Adhesive tape under Category:Tools. On the other hand we have things under Category:Materials like Category:Textiles, which are structurally complex, and Category:Building materials which includes reinforced concrete, also structurally complex. I think either would work.

For me, though, I have trouble thinking of things you make something out of as tools. I think of a tool as something you use for manipulating such things without it becoming a part of what you're making. I realize this isn't based on any technical criteria, but it may be that others will look for this under Category:Materials for similar intuitive reasons. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:19, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, I know what you mean about "tools" seeming slightly off, although I do think under a broad definition it fits (nail is under tools, and it is also something that becomes part of what you're making). Maybe "materials" is better for that reason, especially if complex materials are fine. Or both. 70.175.192.217 04:31, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Someone went ahead and created the category without setting it up in the module, so I did that to get rid of the error. We can always change the parent category if we want to (right now it's "materials"). Chuck Entz (talk) 08:17, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone. --Vivaelcelta (talk) 18:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Need instructions as a beginner

Hello! I am Meghmollar2017. I generally contribute to Wikipedia. But, nowadays, I find that contributing to wiktionary would be great for me too as I have enough resources, especially for Bengali language. So, I am very eager to start contributing to wiktionary in English and Bengali language edition (bn.wiktionary.org). But before starting, I want some instructions from veteran wikimedians on what I can start with or what I can do as a task. Besides, I have a few questions regarding Wiktionary:

• Should I enter the same meaning word-by-word as it is in a reference dictionary or I change a bit as we do in Wikipedia for copyright issue? How do I cite sources? Is there any difference in citation policies in Wikipedia and Wiktionary?
• Can you suggest any standard entry that I can follow while editing?
• How do I categorise in Wiktionary?
• How to link to a wiktionary entry with other project entries? Suppose, I have created a new entry in bnwiktionary namely "জল" (water); and there is already an entry named "পানি" (water) which is again synonymous to the previous one. And, again, there is an entry named "water" for English language. Now, which entry should be linked with “Water” in Wikidata: "জল", "পানি" or "water"? Should I create new entries on Wikidata for the rests, too?
• Can I create new entries for proverbs and idioms?
• And, finally, can you suggest any Wikiproject that you think I might like?

I have so many questions moving around, but, I think, these are enough for now (though I have already asked a lot lot lot of questions). Thank you for your patience to read my message. Regards Meghmollar2017 (talk) 14:57, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@Meghmollar2017 I left our welcome template on your talk page, which should answer most of your technical questions. As for citations: this is a major difference between Wiktionary and Wikipedia- we're a descriptive dictionary, so usage is our source, not authoritative references (the well-documented languages, at least). See WT:CFI for details. Please avoid copyright violation. While one can't copyright facts or ideas, their expression is copyrightable, and their compilation as a whole as well. While it's not likely that we would face legal action over a definition here or there, it's best to avoid copying verbatim anywhere just on principle, and because individual transgressions have a way of adding up to a pattern.

As for categories- there are etymological and grammatical categories, which are about the terms as parts of a language, and there are topical categories, which are terms related by some extralinguistic theme. We have two types of topical categories: plain topical categories, which consist of terms related to a topic, and sets, which are terms for things that are examples of something. The etymological and grammatical categories are added mainly by templates, which should tell you that it's important to use templates, and to use the right templates. The topical categories are added by hand or via a generic category template such as {{topics}} (mostly through aliases such as {{C}}). All of these categories are defined in an extensive system of modules, as are the language codes- it takes a while to learn how to add a new master category, but adding a language-specific category for a general master category is just a matter of adding {{auto cat}} to the category page.

As for model entries: each language is different, and we tend to defer to the community of editors who work with a particular language for much of the specifics that aren't covered in WT:EL. Always look for an "About" page for any given language. It will be named "About X", where X is the name of the language, and it will have a shortcut consisting of "A" followed by the language code in UPPERCASE. For Bengali, that would be WT:ABN. The About page will give standards for entries in that language that have been adopted by the editors for that language.

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with the above wall of text. Really, the best thing to do is look at lots of entries and see how they're organized and what templates they use. Start simple and start small, working your way up to the more complex stuff. Good luck! Chuck Entz (talk) 15:58, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz, Thanks a lot for your quick response. The links from both of your messages helped a lot to understand. But I am still unclear about inter-wikilinking. Can you please clarify this part, too? Thank you again. Meghmollar2017 (talk) 17:01, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Unicode

What do we do if a word uses a character or script not in Unicode (Such as blisssymbols)? — This unsigned comment was added by 166.109.26.70 (talk) at 15:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC).

Do you have an example of such a word that meets our inclusion requirements? (They tend to exclude constructed languages.) The only possible one that comes to mind for me is the biangbiang noodles character. Equinox ◑ 10:14, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Isn’t biangbiang noodles is Unicode now? Anyways Appendix only conlangs are a thing and blisssymbols has no romanization (or at lest not one I could find) or Under Conlang Unicode Codes (or what ever its called). Also I don’t think Mayan is in Unicode but idk anything about that. --67.81.132.165 22:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

We have Category:Terms containing unencoded characters; e.g., the page for the tally symbol representing five was Unsupported titles/Five-bar gate tally before it was in Unicode (𝍸). J3133 (talk) 10:33, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

But how do we diside what it should be? --67.81.132.165 22:52, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Wildcard search

I'm trying to get a list of Finnish words that end in tuttaa, like the word totuttaa. I tried searching with *tuttaa, but that returns zero results. I also tried intitle:tuttaa but that didn't work either. What should I be doing differently? ~ heyzeuss 17:02, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

[1] DTLHS (talk) 17:04, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks, that works! Strange that it returns zero results with an asterisk wildcard. Do the slashes make a regex pattern? ~ heyzeuss 17:18, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Coming in a bit late, but you can also make a list with Auto-Wiki Browser and then filter it in the editor or with a text editor. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:27, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Broken Korean word page

오르다 displays "Lua error: bad argument #1 to 'gsub' (string expected, got table)"

This seems not to be a memory error. Just a report, I have no clue how to fix this.

Kotlopou (talk) 11:52, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

No error on my end. Fytcha (talk) 12:07, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Last night (California time, several hours before the above report) there were about 1,700 entries in CAT:E. The entries were in multiple scripts and languages, so it had to be one of the basic modules. All of the entries I checked showed no errors, and disappeared from the category after a null edit. I fell asleep before I was able to clear more than a few dozen. Apparently someone made an edit to a widely transcluded module that caused a widespread error, then it was fixed before I found out about it. This happens from time to time, and how long it takes to clear up depends on how full the job queue is.

With similar situations in the past, I've noticed that sometimes a few entries still display the error on the page, but it goes away with a null edit. In such cases, I suspect it's a matter of the bad edit taking a while to propagate to all the entries and the timing being just right so that it hits at about the same time as the page is loaded. It's a bit of a fluke, but with thousands of pages affected and thousands of people viewing pages, the odds are good for it to happen. My knowledge of systems isn't that advanced, but my impression is that the interaction between the edits, the job queue, and the entries over all the Wikimedia sites is too complex for anyone to predict how it will play out.

Short answer: both you and the OP were right. The error was really there, but it cleared by itself before you got to it. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:42, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Entry missing from drop-down menu

I'm really new to this and don't know what I'm doing... That said, I was looking up the word, "ve" in Wiktionary, and it did not show up in the drop-down list of available entries to look up. (Now, I presume that if the entry isn't listed then no information is available except for the option of "Search for pages containing...") But then by looking around on Wiktionary enough, I discovered that there is quite a lot of information available on "ve" except that it doesn't show up in the drop-down menu. I can type, "v" alone, and that shows up. I type, "ve", and that is missing. Then I type, "vex" (for example), and that shows up as expected. So I wonder what is going wrong with, "ve" for it not to show up at all in the drop-down menu OR is that even an issue?

Be that as it may, a few weeks ago I was looking up stuff on Wiktionary and it asked for donations. I really can't afford that. But I have you know that if I come into any real money, I intend to donate generously.

Ĉaŭ, Koh — This unsigned comment was added by 96.241.195.164 (talk) at 03:56, 23 November 2021 (UTC).

Koh, how the search feature functions is actually not something that we work on locally at this wiki but it's done by developers. You can learn more about the software at MediaWiki's own wiki and if you find problems, you can post them to phab: (if you decide to make an account). —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Rollbacks without being rollbacker?

How is this user (User:Hasley) being able to make rollbacks (Special:Contributions/Hasley with their edits tagged as "Rollback" and the reverted edits as "Reverted") despite having no rights (Special:UserRights/Hasley)? Fytcha (talk) 17:23, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Fytcha I knew it had to be linked to their involvement in the Wikimedia community in general. So, according to Special:GlobalUserRights/Hasley, they have the rights "global-rollbacker, global-sysop to global-rollbacker, global-sysop, abusefilter-helper". PseudoSkull (talk) 17:49, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: Thank you, I wasn't aware that this is possible (not sure if it is a good idea though). Fytcha (talk) 17:56, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Fytcha: I looked at a few of the edits themselves. Do you object to the content of any of the rollbacks? Note that user scripts can easily "do" rollbacking, so the user rights is really a formality and smooths over the process of someone rolling back. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Just to clarify any potential confusion, I merely revert vandalism that shows up on my CVN queue occasionally. If you consider this as problematic, I can simply opt-out Wiktionary from my watchlist. Please let me know. Best, —Hasley (talk) 18:21, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hasley: Please don't opt out; see my response below. --Fytcha (talk) 18:38, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Koavf: I have absolutely no objections to this particular user and their edits. I also don't see any issues with the global-rollbacker rights in general. I am however a bit reserved when it comes to the global-sysop rights: 1. Local sysops are strictly more qualified as executives within their local communities than global sysops and 2. local sysops have been elected by the will of the local community. --Fytcha (talk) 18:38, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for the clarification, Fytcha. As for the second part of your response, global sysops cannot use their tools on this project, as enwiktionary is opted-out of the GS wiki list. —Hasley (talk) 18:55, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Hasley: I see, I don't have any objection anymore. Thank you and everybody else for patiently explaining. Fytcha (talk) 19:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Fytcha: Thanks for asking: I think we all learned something today. The true rollbacks were the friends we made along the way. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:07, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

@Koavf There is actually a difference: a true rollback marks the reverted edit as patrolled, so it drops off the radar for admins. A script will leave it unpatrolled. We have some truly incredible non-rollbacker patrollers like @Suzukaze-c and now @Fytcha who catch bad edits very quickly and undo the immediate damage, but they can't do things like blocking or hiding revisions. The admins who come after them can then go through all those edits in Recent Changes and do the necessary admin stuff to finish things off. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:20, 30 November 2021 (UTC)