Talk:pedophilia

"Pedarist"?

Is "pedarist" actually a word, or some odd variant of pederast ([1])? The spelling seems too divergent from the pronunciation to tell. —Muke Tever 04:57, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)

That was a case of my bad spelling — 203.108.239.12 05:36, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC) (hippietrail)

"Hebophilia"

We need an entry for the word "hebophilia", or attraction to teenagers. 67.5.157.174 21:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

hebophilia, if it exists (there are a few scattered attestations in Google books), should be attraction to adolescence (Greek: ἤβη adolescence)... The apter and more common word for attraction to teenagers is ephebophilia (Greek: ἔφηβος adolescent, teenager). —Muke Tever 21:57, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Philia vs. eros

Pedophilia is actually a wrong word to express "a sexual or erotic feelings of desires directed towards children" because philia is NOT erotic love, eros is to express erotic (erotic comes from eros) love. Like it is used in Philo-sophia (love for wisdom) phil-antrop (love for mankind/humans)This is not erotic love! English language does not have two words for this to love (maybe to love and to like) but ancient greek has. Pederasty wold be the correct frase because it starts with the same word peido (child, boy, used in pedagogy too) but ends with erostos (erotic love). So pedophile actually someone who love children in a normal way like a mother loves her child, like a philosopher loves wisdom. Pederast who loves children in an erotic (erast and erotic comes from the same root) way. I know nowadays everyone uses pedophile for someone who loves childre eraticaly and uses pederast for a man who loves young boys but both of them are wrong usages. I suggest to mention this controversion in the article! I am not native English speaker neither a wikipedia editor so i only mention this here and hope someone will hear and listen. Balint from Budapest. — This unsigned comment was added by 80.98.119.53 (talk) at 14:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC).

Even if you're right, we need to document words as they are used, not as they ideally "should" be used. Equinox ◑ 11:14, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Wrong use of Pederast.

RFV

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification.

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We have:

1. Sexual or erotic feelings or desires directed by adults towards children.
2. A desire for overt sexual acts directed by adults towards children.
3. Whatever assumed manifestation of erotic feelings or desires directed towards children, for example using of child pornography, involvement in age unequal interrelationship with a child or an young person etc.

The first two seem basically the same. I can't really tell what the third is supposed to mean. FTR I did just edit the first two because they were badly written. I didn't intend to change the meaning, but it became more apparent that they were redundant. You can see what they used to look like if you want. I think the second two could just be completely removed without losing anything from the entry. WurdSnatcher 04:50, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, what is is that we are supposed to be citing? --Mglovesfun (talk) 21:40, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Either of the last two, sorry I wasn't clear. WurdSnatcher 00:12, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

Sense 2 before it was edited referred to acts; now it refers to the desire for acts. That's quite a change (which makes the sense redundant to 1). I say revert that. (Sufficiently many, though not all, of the cites at google books:"engaging|engaged in pedophilia" are for the old sense 2.)​—msh210℠ (talk) 17:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)

I cited both senses. The "acts" sense was later removed, but I have re-added it and cited it and the "desires" sense fully. The two senses are distinct. - -sche (discuss) 17:50, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Passed. - -sche (discuss) 07:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Orientation

Some note should probably be made that pedophilia is sometimes considered a sexual orientation. See, e.g.:

• Template:cite web
• Template:cite journal

In that latter article, the author writes, "male sexual orientation can be defined as the direction(s) of a male person’s sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, arousal, and behavior . . . . By the above definition of sexual orientation—and most common definitions of sexual orientation—pedophilia can be viewed as a sexual age orientation based on the more limited evidence available regarding its age of onset, associations with sexual and romantic behavior, and stability over time. Though there are clearly differences in some respects, there are also striking similarities in the research literature on pedophilia."

On the other hand, it was noted, 'APA considers pedophilic disorder a “paraphilia,” not a “sexual orientation.”' Leucosticte (talk) 08:32, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

RFD discussion: February–March 2014

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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pedophilia

RFD:

• Sexual acts committed by adults with prepubescent children.

The quotations given do not support the definition because they do not specify what is meant by "engaging in" or "committing" pedophilia. Pedophilia is about what goes on in the mind, not about behavior. Granted, one of the ways in which a person can get diagnosed with pedophilia is by acting on those desires, but the psychiatric literature is pretty clear that not everyone who engages in sexual activity with children is a pedophile, as the third paragraph of the lead to w:pedophilia points out. We should at least note that it's an incorrect use of the word. Leucosticte (talk) 15:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

In informal (non-clinical) speech, any adult who engages in sexual activity with children often is termed a pedophile, and their actions or the motivation behind them are termed pedophilia. This is what the sense in question is intended to cover, as explained when it was RFVed.
AFAICT, this is the only -philia entry which currently contains an "acts" sense; OTOH, other -philias are not as often found in collocations like "engaged in ____philia".
<tangent>Only some -sexuality entries contain "acts" senses, e.g. homosexuality defines itself as "the state of being attracted..." or as "sexual activity between...", but heterosexuality and bisexuality define themselves only as "the state of being attracted...". Because all the -sexualities are most likely attested in the same kinds of collocations, this is a more curious discrepancy... but tangential to this particular RFD.</tangent> - -sche (discuss) 17:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Engaging in or committing pedophilia could mean engaging in pedophilic thinking, kind of like how you can engage in meditation or commit thoughtcrime. ("Commit" usually means to engage in an illegal act; probably the only reason people talk of "committing" suicide is that it was once illegal. Since pedophilia isn't illegal in any jurisdiction I know of, it's probably incorrect to speak of "committing" it.)

It's kind of sloppy thinking to assume that a person who has sex with a child must be a pedophile. That would be like saying that a person who reads a book is a bibliophile. Maybe there just wasn't anything good on TV, and that's why the person read a book. There are people in prison who are voracious readers while they're in there, and then don't pick up a book afterwards.

The misuse of the term "pedophilia" is similar to the misuse of the term schizophrenic; given how often it's misused, it might be appropriate to note that use, but what is the specific notation that we would put? Slang? Casual? Incorrect? Leucosticte (talk) 19:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Interesting because commit suicide is located further up the page. To answer your question, I suppose {{context|medical|lang=en}} could be used to distinguish it from the {{context|informal|lang=en}} sense. TeleComNasSprVen (talk) 00:01, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It occurs to me that this discussion should probably be moved to WT:RFV (if you still dispute that the sense exists). RFV is the venue for determining if particular senses of words, or entire words, exist; RFD is the venue for arguing that senses or words which do exist shouldn't be included in Wiktionary, because they're unidiomatic, or redundant to other senses. The sense was previously RFVed, but if you think that some of the citations that talk about "committing pedophilia" could actually be referring to "committing pedophilic thinking", you could request clearer citations. IMO, the Lewis and Cavender ones are clearly referring to acts, but the Burgess one could indeed just be referring to thinking/fantasies. - -sche (discuss) 07:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm kinda in over my head here. It's difficult enough to make sense of all the semantic issues surrounding topics related to pedophilia/pedosexuality/minor attracted person, etc. because people have come up with so many overlapping terms with multiple senses; plus I'm a newcomer here so am not used to the processes. I had thought they were simpler than they actually are. So, perhaps I will leave this to you, lest I make even more of a mess than currently exists. Leucosticte (talk) 23:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the terminology of the topic seems quite complicated. And I suppose Wiktionary's processes may also seem complicated at first, though the basic division is the one I noted above: RFV for "do people actually use this word / this sense?", RFD for "sure, people use these words, but they're not idiomatic".
I've removed the one ambiguous citation (from Burgess) and replaced it with one that I think more clearly shows the word pedophilia being used to denote sexual activity rather than desire. IMO, there's nothing else to be done. TeleComNasSprVen mentions some possible context labels, but neither sense seems to be limited to use in the medical community or informal speech, respectively, so I don't think it would be appropriate to add either label. - -sche (discuss) 00:55, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Resolved. This was a matter for RFV, but the entry has now been comprehensively cited, so there's no need to move it thither. - -sche (discuss) 21:42, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Etymology hole

I think something may be missing from the explanation of the etymology here. The prefix and suffix seem pretty straight forward.

παῖς (pais) + ? + φιλέω (philéō)

παιδοφιλία (paidophilía)

παιδόφιλος (paidóphilos)

Regarding the prefix I notice these things:

• the first two characters πα appear unchanged
• vanishing tilde: the ῖ changes to ι, where did the squiggly line go?
• the ς after the (now topless) lowercase I, which is making the 'S' sound, at the end, appears to be dropped

Regarding the suffix I notice:

• the first three characters φιλ (which I think make 'phil' or 'fil' or something) appear intact
• the last two έω (pronounced éō) are replaced with either ία (ia) or ος (os).
  • Notably the C symbol dropped from the pais prefix reappears once again making an 'S' sound for the 2nd one.

There seem to be some middle unaccounted-for characters though. This is what I am wondering about the etymology of:

• the two characters δο (making a "do" or "dó" sound, bit unclear on the vowel) are added

Does anyone know what that means? Do we have a middle to mention in the etymology? Does it have its own meaning? Or could this possible be some Ancient Greek meaningless filler used to attach compounds together? Kind of like a dash symbol.

Whatever it is, I would like to discern that and add it to the etymology, it's weird. Etym (talk) 00:44, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

Definition minimum age

I believe that in order to be diagnosed as a pedophile, a person has to be at least 16 years old (it might perhaps be unlikely in practice that someone that age would be diagnosed with it, but that's the absolute minimum), so it is definitional in that sense, because a 15 year old is an adolescent, but he cannot be diagnosed with that defect, because of how the DSM-IV is written. I don't know if the minimum age belongs in the entry though. I'm just stating why it put that in the definition, I'll leave it up to others to decide if it should go in. User:PaulBustion88 (User talk:PaulBustion88) 03:23, 24 April 2015 (UTC) The source for age 16 years to be the minimum age for diagnosis is this,Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition". American Psychiatric Publishing. 2013. Retrieved July 25, 2013. Its listed on English wikipedia as their source for that statement. That's why I put it in the definition.User talk:PaulBustion88 07:48, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Prepubescent was taken out of the definition.

I do not care about putting the minimum age for diagnosis back in the article, and maybe it would be a bad idea actually because some people have proposed raising the minimum age for diagnosis to 18 and if that happened it would be confusing for readers, but I do think the entry should specify that this attraction is specifically to prepubescent children, because "children" in popular usage means any person who is not yet 18 years old. Obviously attraction to a 17 year old, for example, is not the same thing as pedophilia. Someone removed the adjective "prepubescent" from the article. PaulBustion88 (talk) 13:32, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Review of sense edits through 1 May 2015

The following is a review of all edits through May 1, 2015 (this revision).

The initial 2004 edit

• Primary sexual attraction to prepubescent children (generally 13 years of age or younger).

as, in my opinion, quite accurate A 2005 edit (diff) focused on the diagnostic criteria of psychiatry in the U.S.

• (US) A paraphilia consisting of a primary sexual attraction to prepubescent children; DSM IV: Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 or younger).

and added two usage notes

The term has been mistakenly used to describe adults sexually involved with adolescents. (See pederasty)

The term has also been misused in describing juvenile sex play between minors.

From 2005, good faith edits were made to clarify the single sense, instead of adding additional sense(s) of behavior, found in the usage notes (diff) Some unsuccessfully attempted to remove content describing the term as behavior (e.g., diff, diff) but were patrolled and reverted. Some unsuccessfully attempted to restrict meaning to an etymological sense (diff).

In 2009, the single sense was split into three senses (diff)

• sexual feelings directed towards children.
• Overt sexual acts directed towards children.
• (psychology) A paraphilia consisting of a primary adult sexual attraction to prepubescent children (DSM-IV: Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense, sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children)

In 2010, a fourth sense was added (diff)

• A general affection for children, the opposite of pedophobia. The erotic affection for chilren was originally by Richard von Krafft-Ebing (1886, Psychopathia sexualis) called with a specifying adjective, peadophilia erotica in Latin.

and, a fifth sense was added (diff)

• Whatever assumed manifestation of erotic feelings of desires directed towards children, for example using of child pornography, involvement in age unequal interrelationship with a child or an young person etc.

3 April 2011, the second sense was changed from an external act to a internal desire (diff), and a (Requests for verification was made

6 April 2011, the first attested usages were added (diff) and a sense was modified to distinguish external acts from internal desires

• A desire for overt sexual acts directed by adults towards children.
  
• Sexual acts committed by adults with children.

Then, a few weeks later, four senses were removed (diff), the remaining sense was

• Sexual or erotic feelings or desires directed by adults towards children. […]

A few months later, that one sense was split into two (diff)

• Sexual or erotic feelings or desires directed by adults towards children; particularly, in psychiatry, a paraphilia consisting of a primary adult sexual attraction to prepubescent children. […]
• Sexual acts committed by adults with children.

The Wiktionary:Requests for verification passed diff) see Talk:pedophilia#RFV.

In 2014, an attempt to remove the 2011 sense of an act (diff) was reverted (diff). See Talk:pedophilia#RFD discussion: February–March 2014.

In 2015, the first sense was changed (diff)

• Sexual or erotic feelings or desires directed by adults and late adolescents towards children; particularly, in psychiatry, a paraphilia consisting of a primary adult sexual attraction to prepubescent children. […]
• Sexual feelings or desires directed by adults 16 and older towards prepubescent children. […]

A usage note was added (diff)

• Many psychologists recommend against using the term pedophilia to denote sexual activities with children, because not all people with a sexual preference for children (i.e., pedophilia) commit such acts, and child molesters often lack a strong sexual interest in children. See Wikipedia for more information.

The usage note was expanded (diff) from

• Many psychologists recommend against using the term pedophilia to denote sexual activities with children, because not all people with a sexual preference for children (i.e., pedophilia) commit such acts, and child molesters often lack a strong sexual interest in children. […]

into

• Psychologists recommend against using the term pedophilia to denote sexual activities with prepubescent children, because not all people with a sexual preference for prepubescent children (i.e., pedophilia) commit such acts, and child molesters often lack a strong sexual interest in prepubescent children. Also the common use of the term pedophilia, to mean any adult who has sex with any minor (i.e., under 18), is not correct. Pedophilia specifically refers to attraction to prepubescents, not to all minors. […]

The sense was reverted to reflect earlier meaning (diff)

• Primary or exclusive sexual feelings or desires directed by adults or adolescents 16 and older towards prepubescent children. […]
• Sexual feelings or desires (sexual attraction) directed by adults and late adolescents towards children; particularly, in psychiatry, a paraphilia consisting of a primary adult sexual attraction to prepubescent children. […]

The edit summary is def from before en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=pedophilia&diff=32717033&oldid=31351647 was more accurate, reflective that many people describe any (even non-exclusive) adult sexual attraction to kids as pedophilia; also, 16 is prob. not definitional

The usage note was referenced (diff) and changed

• […] sexual activities with prepubescent children, because not all people with a sexual preference for prepubescent children (i.e., pedophilia) commit such acts, and child molesters often lack a strong sexual interest in prepubescent children. Also the common use of the term pedophilia, to mean any adult who has sex with any minor (i.e., under 18), is not correct. Pedophilia specifically refers to attraction to prepubescents, not to all minors. […]
• […] sexual activities with children, because not all people with a sexual preference for prepubescent children (i.e., pedophilia) commit such acts, and child molesters often lack a strong sexual interest in prepubescent children. Furthermore, psychological texts define pedophilia as a preference for specifically prepubescent children; preferential attraction to older children is known as hebephilia or ephebophilia. […]

It was split into two (diff) from

• Primary or exclusive sexual feelings or desires (sexual attraction) directed by adults and older adolescents towards prepubescent children; particularly, in psychiatry, a paraphilia consisting of a primary adult or adolescent sexual attraction to prepubescent children.

into

• Primary or exclusive sexual feelings or desires by majors (i.e. those over the age of consent) towards minors.
• (medicine) Sexual attraction by adults and older adolescents towards prepubescent children.

The edit summary is split first two definitions as per WT:RFC#pedophilia

The senses were edited (diff) from

• Primary or exclusive sexual feelings or desires by majors (i.e. those over the age of consent) towards minors.
• […] Sexual attraction by adults and older adolescents towards prepubescent children.

into

• Sexual attraction to or sexual contact with minors by adults.
• […] Mental disorder in which an adult or adolescent aged 16 years or older is mostly or only sexually attracted towards prepubescent children.

—BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:02, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

@BoBoMisiu: That is an excellent review of activity. Thank you for your good work. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 21:03, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Another user, Renard Migrant, put in the definition as "Primary or exclusive sexual feelings or desires by majors (i.e. those over the age of consent towards minors."https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=pedophilia&diff=prev&oldid=32737411, I took "age of consent" out of that definition with this edit,https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=pedophilia&diff=next&oldid=32738001, because age of consent for sex is not what defines legal adulthood, age of majority is, and because the popular definition of pedophilia definitely is more connected to age of majority than age of consent, for example, when Mark Foley made sexual advances on young men who worked for him, nobody cared about the fact that they were all 16 years old or older, which made them of legal age for sex in Washington, D.C., because they were under the age of majority, i.e., 18, which made them still legally children, the most popular use of the term pedophilia is attraction to or interaction with any person under 18, and that definition correlates more to age of majority than age of consent. I originally added the phrasing that pedophilia was when an adult 16 years old or older was primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to children with this edit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/?diff=32393361&oldid=31351647, but later I decided that since in the vast majority of countries the age of majority is 18 and the general public usually considers 16 year olds children, my calling a 16 year old an adult was inappropriate, so I changed it to "an adult or adolescent age 16 or older" with this edit, https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=pedophilia&diff=next&oldid=32436990. I was criticized for including age 16, one editor stating it was "probably not definitional". I still kept age 16 because no one younger than that can be diagnosed as a pedophile and there are some adolescents younger than 16 years old. The person whoi said age 16 was not definitional was wrong, it is set as the minimum age by the medical community. Although its probably unlikely that someone that young would be labeled as a pedophile since they are generally considered children, that's the absolute minimum age to be diagnosed with pedophilia according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders-Fifth Edition, i.e., no one younger than that age can be a pedophile in the medical sense of the term. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Redundancy

Definition 4 is somewhat redundant to definition 3. "Sexual activity between adults and (prepubescent) children" and "a sex crime against a child" include overlapping definitions, which I thought we were supposed to avoid. Because the legal age of consent for sex is either age 13 or higher (I'm not saying 13 is a common age of consent for sex, I'm saying there's almost no country, state, or jurisdictions where its lower than that) in almost all countries, and the vast majority of 13 year olds and older are either pubescent or post-pubescent, in practice any sexual activity between an adult and a prepubescent child is a sex crime against a child. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 22:13, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

@PaulBustion88 your concern here is similar to your concern in the tea room, where I wrote to you recently

I disagree, that another problem with that is the definition of a child. Age is an attribute of a child. Age is not an attribute of pedophilia. These various senses and definitions are not about particular law. You are shifting away from what pedophilia is; you are shifting to who a child is. Are you challenging some of the attested usages that I added?

here, again, you are attempting to prescribe who a child is. Both child and Citations:child are the places to add the attested usages that you gather about who a child is. The attested usages that I added do not include your assertion of age. Please add some usages to Citations:pedophilia that support your assertions. Please read through the rest of my attestations, as I will be adding other senses soon. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 23:22, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not trying to define who a child is, what I'm saying is that defining pedophilia as a "sexual activity between adults and prepubescent children" seems to fall under the broader umbrella of "a sex crime against a child". I'm not saying all children are prepubescent, I'm saying the prepubescent category falls into the broader sex crimes against children category. It seems redundant in that sense. And not many people use it in that specific way, there is the medical definition, which is about primary or exclusive adult or adolescent sexual attraction to prepubescent children, and there is the popular definition of an adult having sex with a child or being sexually attracted to a child, the definition of having sex with prepubescent children seems to kind of be overlapped into those other two definitions, so that its kind of redundant. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 03:52, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I do contest this citation,https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Citations:pedophilia#Noun:_.22interest_in_children_as_sexual_subjects.22_.28an_internal_paraphilia.29, "1961, Frank S. Caprio, Donald R. Brenner, Sexual behavior: psycho-legal aspects, New York: Citadel Press, OCLC 607932741, page 204:

Pedophilia is a deviation of the sexual impulse characterized by the compulsive urge to accost or assault children sexually. The word is of Greek derivation and means "love of boys." It is a common sexual offense." That is not true, pedophilia etymologically comes from Greek words meaning "love of children", not sex specific. Ephebophilia, which is more similar to teliophilia (adult sexual attraction) than to pedophilia, comes from Greek words that mean "love of adolescent boys" ephebe I believe was a Greek word meaning a young adult or adolescent male, that term was used because homosexual adult/adolescent relationships were common in ancient Greeece. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 04:14, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I guess I was wrong about the etymology, someone just added to the article,https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=pedophilia&type=revision&diff=32780654&oldid=32779734, "An adaptation of the German Pädophilie, bringing its spelling into conformity with pedo- +‎ -philia, from Ancient Greek παῖς (paîs, “boy, child”) and φιλέω (philéō, “I love”). Compare the Byzantine Greek παιδοφιλία (paidophilía, “love of children”)." I thought it just came from the Greek for "love of child". --PaulBustion88 (talk) 06:36, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

@PaulBustion88 Although it is struck, I don't understand your challenge. Did I miscopy from Caprio?

Please add some usages to Citations:pedophilia that support your assertions. I will not discuss prescription. These seem like two senses – one criminal, and one anthropological or sociological. Add attested usages for the historical senses. FYI, even in Sparta, the violation of a child was punished by the loss of civil rights, exile, or death, according to several ancient sources. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 13:43, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I mistakenly believed pedophliia did not have an etymological relationship to the word boy, i was wrong, that was why I challenged Caprio, because of my mistaken belief about the etymology. I was wrong to challenge that specific quote. Then I retracted the challenge when I realized I was wrong.--PaulBustion88 (talk) 13:53, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that any society has tolerated pedophilic behavior. Read what I wrote earlier, "Because the legal age of consent for sex is either age 13 or higher (I'm not saying 13 is a common age of consent for sex, I'm saying there's almost no country, state, or jurisdictions where its lower than that) in almost all countries, and the vast majority of 13 year olds and older are either pubescent or post-pubescent, in practice any sexual activity between an adult and a prepubescent child is a sex crime against a child. " I'm not trying in bringing that up again to say who is an adult and who is not, my point is that statement is saying all countries have laws against sex with children, so I don't see how you're trying to argue that I said some societies condone pedophilia. Here,"FYI, even in Sparta, the violation of a child was punished by the loss of civil rights, exile, or death, according to several ancient sources.", it seems with that statement that you feel a need to remind me that the vast majority of societies condemn this, I understand.

I'm not saying some societies condone pedophilia. My point with the Greek example was just an etymological one, I stated incorrectly that I thought the word pedophilia evolved out of the Greek words for love of child, not love of boys specifically, I was wrong it turned out. And I said maybe they were thinking of ephebophilia, which evolved out of Greek words for "love of boys", ephebophilia means attraction to post-pubescent teenagers, including ones as old as 18-19 and even 20-22 year olds in some definitions, so stating it was a practice in Greece is not the same thing as saying pedophilia was popular in Greece. I never said any society tolerated pedophilia. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 14:03, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

"1962, Robert E. L. Masters, Forbidden sexual behavior and morality: an objective re-examination of perverse sex practices in different cultures, New York: Julian Press, OCLC 568047381, page 399–400:

It is said that in the Middle East the Prophet Mohammed contributed to the spread of pedophilia by his promise that young boys, "forever in their bloom," would wait upon the faithful in Paradise." Islam is very much opposed to homosexuality, so that statement does not make sense. The president of Iran said there were no homosexuals in Iran, I am not saying i agree with him, what i'm saying is that if he has that unrealistic belief, islam must be very homophobic. unfortunately because of the way i'm lying on a sofa now capitalizing is going to be hard and if sit up it might wake the people next to me up, that's why i'm not capitalizing. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 14:28, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

@PaulBustion88 you might be interpreting homosexuality in the quote and confusing it pedophilia. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 16:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Well, it said young boys, so that would be homosexual pedophilia, I guess. I have heard some people argue that Mohammad was a pedophile because his wife was 9, but others have argued that his wife was older ages, sometimes as old as 17 or 18, which would be outside the pedophile's interest. Islam is against sex with the same sex, "boys" would be the same sex. Presumably Islam would be against pedophilia also, since that's generally considered worse than homosexuality. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 03:23, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘The meaning of the word "pedophilia" obviously has nothing to do with Islam. No need to chase that train of thought. Equinox ◑ 03:37, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but the sentence is stating something about Islam that is probably false. Is it appropriate to include sentences with false statements as citations. Like would include the statement "X is a pedophile who has sex with children" as a sample sentence be appropriate if X is not a pedophie who has sex with children? --PaulBustion88 (talk) 03:43, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Ignoring the questionable historicity of the use of the word homosexual to describe the Ancient Greeks (as many scholars believe that homosexuality as an identity construct arose in the late 19th century where previously same-sex relationships were not identity-defining and normative), I'm still not sure why homosexuality is being specifically brought up in this context as it has no direct impact on the meaning of pedophilia. —JohnC5 03:51, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm bringing it up because the sentence is implying Mohammad was a homosexual pedophile. Islam opposes homosexuality, so since the sentence is making a false statement, it should be removed. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

I added a few quotes to Citations:paidophilia, one seems to mean that paidophilia is also a cultural custom. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 18:58, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I'm wrong about the other senses I criticized as repetitive, but sense 7 is definitely redundant to sense 2, so I took it down.--PaulBustion88 (talk) 06:09, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Sense 6 is also redundant to definition 2, its just the World Health Organization's diagnosis of the same mental defect as the AMA and APA diagnose. They give a similar definition, a sexual preference for prepubescent and early pubescent children. That's basically a repeat of definition one, its only slightly different. Its still more like the medical definition than the popular, mistaken definition. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 08:41, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Diagnostic classification within two systems

Discussion moved from User talk:BoBoMisiu.

Senses 5,6, and 7 that you added to the pedophilia entry are definitely redundant to sense 2, particularly the last sense. Why did you add them? Sense 2, Mental disorder in which an adult or adolescent aged 16 years or older is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to prepubescent children. 5.A sexual orientation. 6.A World Health Organization clinical diagnostic classification of some pedophilia; a disorder of sexual preference.   7. An American Psychiatric Association clinical diagnostic classification of some pedophilia. The medical definition of pedophilia has always been the one in sense 2, so 7 would be the same as 2. The sexual orientation has also always been about having a sexual attraction to prepubescent or sometimes also early pubescent children, so its also basically the same as sense 2, the sexual orientation definition never includes all attraction to under 18s for obvious reasons, being attracted to a 14-17 year old is much more like being attracted to an 18-21 year old than to a 7 year old or even a 12 year old, so lumping all sexual attraction to minors in the same category of sexual orientation would be impossible. PaulBustion88 (talk) 05:53, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

@PaulBustion88: I responded to you a few days ago that you are attempting to prescribe who a child is (diff and diff) and add some usages to Citations:pedophilia that support your assertions. I will not discuss prescription (diff). Stop foisting; start contributing.

From the attestations and outside reading there are two systems of typology used in English that categorize pedophilia. My last revision included both.

• sense 6— A worldwide system still uses the term pedophilia: (epidemiology, psychiatry) A World Health Organization clinical diagnostic classification of some pedophilia; a disorder of sexual preference. This sense is about the statistical category of disorder of sexual preference within the grouping of "Disorders of adult personality and behaviour".
• sense 7— An American system outmoded the term pedophilia: (psychiatry, outmoded) An American Psychiatric Association clinical diagnostic classification of some pedophilia. [from ? through 2013] That American system replaced the term pedophilia with the term pedophilic disorder in 2013. That change in language is clearly an important aspect about this term.

Your other concern

• sense 5— sexual orientation is about a "state of being", and is distinguished by consensus in the 21st c. "as not a choice" and is not, in what I read, a classification in epidemiology or psychiatry of, in your words, a sense of mental disorder.

Nevertheless,

• sense 2— (medicine, more strictly) Mental disorder in which an adult or adolescent aged 16 years or older is primarily or exclusively sexually attracted to prepubescent children. That is distinguished from sense 6. The quote attesting usage of sense 6: Paedophilia is defined as a mental disorder within the International Classification of Diseases ICD-10 […] Contrary to any medical model of a diagnosis, however, such classification offers no understanding of aetiology and no indication of prognosis or grounds for treatment., is clear that sense 6, about a typological category, is not equivalent but Contrary to any medical model of a diagnosis.

—BoBoMisiu (talk) 12:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)