Talk:かす

Reversion

@Fish bowl:

Of the four sense lines where the anon added 渣, I can't confirm this spelling at all for half of them, and the character seems to be uncommon for any sense as a standalone, to the point that various dictionaries don't even list a kun'yomi for this -- Kōjien, Daijirin, Daijisen, nothing at all at Kotobank or WWWJDIC's term dictionary, and no kun'yomi in WWWJDIC's kanji dictionary. I am loath to add rare alternative spellings to {{ja-def}} listings, and indeed, my impression was that rare alternatives, if included at all, should be added to {{ja-kanjitab|alt=...}} listings with appropriate qualifiers, on the lemma page.

For the "scolding" sense where the anon added 粕, I cannot confirm this spelling for that sense in references, only for "lees, dregs; useless rubbish" senses. See also WWWJDIC, Daijisen, among others. The more extensive KDJ entry at Kotobank indicates that the "scolding" sense appears to be limited to the 糟 spelling. See also the Kotobank page for the idiom 糟を食う, listing only the 糟 spelling. Poking around in Google Books, however, does show that the 粕 spelling is actually more prominent for the idiom: google books:"糟を食う" nets 7 ostensible hits, compared to 102 for google books:"粕を食う".

The anon's edits show that 1) this is the same disruptive person who keeps removing the hyphens from {{ja-readings}} and breaking things; 2) they had also included poor translations like this one listing 鉄拳 for iron fist (granted, that is literally what the Japanese means, but it is not reflective of how either the JA or the EN terms are used -- see also Kotobank); and 3) incorrect English glosses for kanji such as here for 禾 (cannot find anyone listing this with a "paddy" sense). The anon is wrong about formatting, or wrong about meaning, often enough that I have learned to do a quick scan and revert.

Looping back to the かす entry and their addition of 渣 and 粕, I think it would be correct to maintain their inclusion of 粕, but given the apparent rarity of the 渣 kanji for the かす reading, I am not a fan of including that outside of the lemma entry. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:56, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

https://furigana.info/w/渣 — ? —Fish bowl (talk) 04:22, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fish bowl:

Re: 渣, cheers, ya. I'm not saying this reading doesn't exist -- rather, I'm saying that this reading appears to be quite rare, and my understanding is that we don't include very rare spellings in {{ja-def}} references. I'm having difficulty searching for this character in a way that confirms the reading -- google:"渣" "かす" finds some that are probably the kanji + ruby, but it's also finding others where the かす is appearing elsewhere in the text, apparently unrelated to the kanji. This makes frequency comparison difficult.

Re: 粕 and the "scolding" sense, I haven't found cases of this used as a standalone noun to mean "scolding" -- I've only found it in the longer idiomatic phrase 粕を食う. As such, it wouldn't be appropriate to add 粕 on its own to the sense line for "scolding". For that matter, I'm not finding the other spelling 糟 used as a standalone noun with this sense, and revisiting this sense line, I realize I may have misinterpreted the references when I added it in September 2020 -- I think the monolingual dictionaries are not listing "scolding" as a sense for this noun itself, so much as pointing readers to the derived idiom 粕を食う. See https://www.weblio.jp/content/%E3%81%8B%E3%81%99, https://kotobank.jp/word/%E7%B3%9F%E3%83%BB%E6%BB%93%E3%83%BB%E7%B2%95-2022083, etc.

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:58, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Eirikr:

{{ja-def}}: I think that 渣 should be in {{ja-def}}, regardless of rarity, to have things explicit: for readers, and for {{ja-see}}, which wants to know which senses to show.

Rarity: It does seem to be rare. Per my understanding, labels like "rare" go in {{ja-kanjitab|alt=}}.

Evidence: http://codh.rois.ac.jp/char-shape/unicode/U+6E23/ (database of kuzushiji) has precisely 1 result. Clicking through reveals a text that marks the reading clearly as 渣(かす) and also uses 糟(かす). Wading through the 漢語 at https://dl.ndl.go.jp/, I also found 蚕渣(かひこかす). I didn't bother to look further.

"Scolding": No knowledge or opinion.

—Fish bowl (talk) 01:06, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

@Fish bowl:

Re: 渣, fair enough.

Re: "scolding", I think I'll rework that sense line.

Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)