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Alternate form[edit]

Why is the alternate form the smae as the entry title? 09:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Due to some automatic conversion (on Wiktionary's part rather than your system's, I suspect), the character and its alternate form share the same entry. This problem also affects other characters that undergo sound change in Korean such as (lywu becomes ywu) and (lo becomes no) – I haven't checked whether only surnames are affected. I guess that they aren't supposed to look any different but have been created out of technical reasons. Note how for each such character, the shape Koreans would usually input for names (which is input via i, ywu, no) looks different in small sizes than their common counterpart (input via li, lywu, lo) found in Chinese or Japanese texts*, which probably either means that
  • the commoner and its Korean alternate belong to different fonts (the Korean alternate being drawn from a Korean font as a fallback measure, because it's not included in the commoner's font that is normally used), or
  • one of them is handcrafted (if both actually belong to the same font).
I can still input the different forms in the gedit text editor (as I was able to do on Window's Notepad), but as soon as I use them on Wikipedia, the difference seems to be gone. However, googling the variants is possible (for example, [1] vs. [2]), and Ctrl+F in Firefox discriminates between alternates. Dustsucker 23:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

*Having a quick look at a few Google results, the top results for what I termed the Korean alternate consist mainly of Traditional Chinese sites,[3] whereas the top results for what I termed the commoner consist mainly or only of Simplified Chinese sites.[4]

On Unicode's Unihan data sheets, the Korean alternates look more carefully designed than the normal glyph shapes. Not being able to find a person via Google just because you entered their name's hanja via the wrong hangul sequence seems like a bad bug, and I wonder what caused it – Unicode's making pairs of alternates, or implementing Unicode in a bad way on the part of whoever made UTF-8, or Google's not doing anything about it. I hope whoever is responsible had a good reason. Dustsucker 23:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

To do[edit]

Add * [ Unihan data for U+F9E1] in 李#References when UllmannBot is done. Dustsucker 23:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

These are CJK compatibility Ideographs, they exist only to preserve round-trip compatibility with one of the other characters sets on which Unicode/UCS was based. The wiktionary s/w is doing the right thing (and Google, etc. are wrong, they should be treating the two Z forms as the same character). The preferred glyph for the character should be selected at language font level, just like the preferred glyphs for Japanese, etc.
If you add that reference line just above the ---- in an entry UllmannBot hasn't formatted yet, it will end up in the right place. See article. Robert Ullmann 00:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for explaining why we have these Z forms. I had asked at the English Wikipedia's reference desk for language-related topics earlier but haven't got a reply as clear as yours there.
Looking forward to see whether the article will look like 柳#References and 盧#References after the bot has visited. Dustsucker 03:21, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
On second thought, I don't think it will. Can always fix it ... ;-) Robert Ullmann 03:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)


Can we get the Vietnamese pronunciation? 08:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

If you don't need IPA, Charles Muller's CJKV-English Dictionary says it is ‹lí›.
Other dictionaries, as well as w:Li (surname), say ‹lý›. According to w:Vietnamese alphabet#Vowels, it seems both i and y are used.