Talk:an arm and a leg

RFM discussion: February 2019–July 2020

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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an arm and a leg

Discussion moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/English#an arm and a leg.

This should be deleted so that the mistaken arm and a leg (with the first article missing) could be moved to its place. Thanks. Adam78 (talk) 09:26, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

It's a redirect, last edited in 2017. I don't think any action is needed. DonnanZ (talk) 12:35, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I know it's a redirect. My point is that the actual article should be under the title an arm and a leg, instead of arm and a leg. The initial article an is an indispensable part of the idiom. Adam78 (talk) 13:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

We omit those articles. The entry is "house", not "a house"; "shoulder to cry on", not "a shoulder to cry on". Equinox ◑ 13:42, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

This is not the only case where we do this: lick and a promise, pinch and a punch for the first of the month. We're inconsistent, however: a blessing and a curse, a boon and a bane. Per utramque cavernam 13:48, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. I've moved it to arm and leg. Adam78 (talk) 14:25, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

It is problematic. As you say, the idiomatic expression is "an arm and a leg". "arm and leg" is to me unidiomatic (in the relevant sense) to the point that it is hard to recognise. It may be that in cases like this we should retain those articles that are, as you said, an indispensable part of the idiom. I would support the main entry being at "an arm and a leg" and the others being redirects. Mihia (talk) 14:50, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I think that edit should be reverted. DonnanZ (talk) 14:59, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

Done. arm and leg is certainly not the right solution. Per utramque cavernam 15:30, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree arm and leg is not the best, but I think it's certainly better than the current asymmetrical solution. Maybe the principle of omitting initial articles comes from the time when paper encyclopedias were created and their entries had to be alphabetically sorted. However, even in that case the article had to be given after the headword, in a way like arm and a leg, an. But it's obviously not the concern of an electronic edition, especially when DEFAULTSORT is available. So please do move it to an arm and a leg. In addition, we could decide about a similar policy to eliminate the inconsistencies mentioned above. These are not the same cases as "a house", due to the parallel structure. Cases like "a shoulder to cry on" might be debated but these, I guess, are beyond doubt. Adam78 (talk) 16:20, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree with having the main entry for this term at an arm and a leg. The specific determiner (article) is required for this to be idiomatic (Native speakers: Try a few others to confirm.), though there are 'creative' uses that depart from the common idiom (eg, an arm or a leg). Probably the coordinate structure is the reason, but each such idiom would need to be reviewed. DCDuring (talk) 16:36, 24 February 2019 (UTC)

The situation is essentially different from the entry house, mentioned above. Next to “a house” you have “this house”, “a nice house”, and so on. But you don’t have “this arm and a leg” or “a nice arm and a leg”. Let arm and a leg simply redirect to an arm and a leg instead of the other way around.  --Lambiam 09:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

A better alternative could be to redirect all to cost an arm and a leg, which itself is a redirect at present, as given in Oxford. It would make more sense as a verbal phrase, I think. DonnanZ (talk) 11:39, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

If we do that, I would like to note that "pay an arm and a leg" and other variants with words such as "worth .. " are also well attested -- should they have entries too? — Mnemosientje (t · c) 12:07, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Also, spend and charge and consider the following with the NP as object of preposition:

• 2006 May 7, William Neumann, “One Family, Two Jobs and Homes in Separate Cities”, in New York Times:

  Kimberly Howard and Edison Peinado bought a one-bedroom apartment on Golden Gate Avenue in the North Panhandle neighborhood of San Francisco last June for what she described as "$650,000, an arm and a leg and our first born."

I rest your case. DCDuring (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Per this and what Lambiam brought up, I agree with Lambiam that an arm and a leg should be the main entry. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 14:44, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

BTW, other OneLook dictionaries have are split on which way to go. See “a * and a *”, in OneLook Dictionary Search..

Other idioms at OneLook: a day late and a dollar short, a hop skip and a jump, a lick and a promise, a nip and a tuck (but also nip and tuck (adverbial use)), a nod and a wink, a wing and a prayer DCDuring (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Of the redlinks, we have lick and a promise and on a wing and a prayer. I haven't tried all possible Verb + NP and Prep + NP combinations. DCDuring (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

Was taken care of a long time ago. PUC – 11:46, 15 July 2020 (UTC)