Talk:demilitarized zone

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demilitarized zone[edit]

It might just be me, but this looks awfully like a zone that has been demilitarized. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:40, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Keep set term. Abbreviated to DMZ. Wikipedia article. This is the lexical unit for a very specific thing. Ƿidsiþ 06:00, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Delete; I would have said Keep until I read the Wikipedia article and it basically covered all zones that are demilitarized. It's not just North Korea / South Korea; it's used for Antarctica, too, which is easily citable from google books:Antarctica demilitarized zone.--Prosfilaes (talk) 06:32, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Delete. There is a proper noun abbreviated as DMZ. This isn't it. DCDuring TALK 10:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
  • As I understand it, any demilitarized zone could validly be called a DMZ, not just the one on the Korean peninsula. -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 15:20, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Keep. The senses given at demilitarize do not adequately describe a DMZ -- a DMZ is not necessarily a zone where troops have been removed (they might not have been there to begin with, as with Antarctica), nor is it necessarily a zone that has been returned to civilian control (again exemplified by Antarctica). -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 15:20, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't comprehend the logic of this. Our definition of the word Sun does not convey the reality of the Sun in all its encyclopedic detail either. A dictionary is not a complete map of reality; it is merely an aid to understanding speech and writing, which falls far short of requiring the latest scientific or institutional detail about the topic. Speakers are not really even attempting to convey all that information either when they use the words. Thus, it seems to me that in normal speech, the sound represented by "demilitarized zone" can either refer to some particular Demilitarized Zone in all its specificity or to a zone that is demilitarized in all its generality. DCDuring TALK 17:18, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
What my comment was meant to convey is that the term demilitarized zone conveys meanings that are not readily apparent from the combination of demilitarized + zone. My understanding is that SOP-ness is based on this criterion, and that if the meaning of a term or phrase is not derived as the sum of its parts, then that term or phrase is not SOP. At present, the senses listed at demilitarized and zone do not add up to demilitarized zone as I understand the term. Does that explain my position better? I'm not trying to be obtuse, nor all-inclusive -- my point is purely regarding the SOP-ness of demilitarized zone.
FWIW, I'm open to the option that someone update demilitarized or demilitarize in such a way that would render demilitarized zone SOP. That might actually be the more pertinent issue here, that demilitarize currently only applies to something that has already been militarized, and does not describe any sense such as "prevent from becoming militarized". -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 17:44, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
Keep per Eiríkr Útlendi. This is a set phrase. "Demilitarized region" or "demilitarized area" would seem wrong as applied to such regions. bd2412 T 18:08, 1 May 2012 (UTC)
google books:demilitarized region and google books:demilitarized area both show a number of hits referring to things that are called demilitarized zones in other sources. Demilitarized zone is a more common colocation, but we haven't generally kept entries because of that.--Prosfilaes (talk) 07:30, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
delete "demilitarized zone", keep "DMZ". --Hekaheka (talk) 06:39, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Delete in the current sense (ie, replace with an {{&lit|demilitarize|zone}}), but add the computing sense of the word, which is definitely not about a zone that is demilitarized, but rather a section of a network which is partially exposed to the internet and firewalled off from the internal network. I'd also possibly add a note that in general use, the phrase refers specifically to an area on the Korean border. Smurrayinchester (talk) 07:29, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
@BD: It is not so set a phrase that one can't find usage such as "turning the Antarctic into something of a global commons -- a demilitarized, nuclear-free zone".
@Eirikr: I think it is difficult to find citations that clearly show a great deal of specific additional meaning for demilitarized zone and easy to find citations that show a lack of specificity or reference to a specific zone that does not have the specific meaning.
@Eirikr: A term like demilitarized is clearly not limited to one narrow interpretation of the prefix de-. I don't think we need to add an extra sense at [[demilitarized#Adjective]], though it hurts little to add additional senses to such a short entry.
@SMurray: I don't suppose that there is any computing-specific usage of demilitarized? DCDuring TALK 12:28, 2 May 2012 (UTC)
Not as far as I know, although "demilitarized network" gets around 500 Google hits, and "demilitarized computer" scores about 50 (some seem to be talking about army surplus computers though). There seems to be only one Google book result which uses "demilitarized network" in this way, plus a couple that talk about "Demilitarized network zones", perhaps to differentiate them from military DMZs. If it did have a computer-specific meaning, it would be along the lines of "Connected to the wider internet, and firewalled off from the rest of the network." Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:37, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
(As an aside, we seem to have DMZ host, but no other use of the computing sense of DMZ, despite the article referring to it. Odd.) Smurrayinchester (talk) 12:49, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Update: I have added the needed senses to demilitarize and demilitarized. Currently, the only argument for keeping this is that it is a set phrase, but the bgc hits above seem to disprove that. There is, however, an option to redirect to DMZ, where I plan to move the translations, if people are interested in that idea. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:05, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm mostly copacetic about the military sense, but what of the computing sense? -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 02:31, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
We can only discuss that if somebody adds it, and I don't know what it means, so I can't.--Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 13:36, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
OK, have added it. Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:18, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
I can find demilitarized in very low numbers (1-3) at bgc with host, LAN, and network, but not server, intranet, router, or computer. Not very common in generic use. I think it is clear that it is derivative of demilitarized zone/DMZ. DCDuring TALK 17:12, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
@DCDuring, how are you searching? google books:"demilitarized"+"server" finds some 6,670 hits at the moment, the first screen's worth of which all look relevant, including text such as:
  • "The content Web server is typically located in what is called a "demilitarized zone" (DMZ). This DMZ is isolated from the secure enterprise network by a firewall..." [1]
  • "In relation to computer security, a Demilitarized Zone (DMZ) refers to a network segment that resides between an internal and external network, such as when an FTP, Web, or database server is located just outside the intranet but between the internal intranet and the external Internet." [2]
  • "An important firewall-related concept is demilitarized zones (DMZs). A DMZ is part of a network on which you place servers that must be accessible by sources both outside and inside your network." [3]
Granted, google books:"demilitarized server", google books:"demilitarized intranet", google books:"demilitarized router", google books:"demilitarized computer" all get nothing useful, but the term at issue in this thread is "demilitarized zone", so the lack of hits is neither all that surprising nor relevant. In reference to network topology, the term demilitarized zone is in demonstrably wide use, and with a meaning that doesn't seem to be immediately derivable as the sum of demilitarized + zone. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:16, 3 May 2012 (UTC)
Keep. The term has exceeded its original meaning as above and I would also keep as an important translation target. --Anatoli (обсудить) 04:13, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
Keep Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 17:50, 1 June 2012 (UTC)
Kept. — Ungoliant (Falai) 01:23, 16 August 2012 (UTC)