Talk:manoeuvrability
Latest comment: 4 years ago by Kiwima in topic RFV discussion: February–March 2020
Some of the "alternative forms" are just misspellings. Equinox ◑ 19:50, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
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Rfv-sense "(from manoeuvre + ability) The ability to perform a strategic plan or manoeuvre." as distinct from the preceding sense. I am not sure that this could, conceptually speaking, exist distinctly. - -sche (discuss) 03:54, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- I am not sure whether the distinction here is between things that one can manoeuvre (like the manoeuvrability of a ship) vs. the ability of the one doing the monoeuvring, or whether it is between physical manoeuvring and strategic manoeuvring, so I picked three quotes that talk of the manoeuvrability of someone who is manoeuvring strategically. Unless I am totally confused, this is cited. Kiwima (talk) 19:28, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thinking more about this, I realize that references to the manoeuvrability of a ship/bus/etc can attribute it to the ship's ability to manoeuvre or to the pilot's ability and hence to the ship's ability/capacity to be manoeuvred. So although I initially thought the "comparison with those who are better off and have greater 'manoeuvrability'" seemed to be using the word in the same way as the first sense's usex, "articulated buses were invented to improve the manoeuvrability of long buses" — the people can maneuver (through society / life / socioeconomic classes), the buses can maneuver (through the streets) — and I'm not sure we want to separate that (do we in other -abilities?), I also found and added a choppy citation which seems to refer to a pilot's "manoeuvrability" meaning "ability to manoeuvre" (although portions of the page/text seem to be cut off) and realized I'm on the fence. I await others' perspectives, both on which sense each citation is using and whether they are more sensibly kept separate or combined. - -sche (discuss) 19:58, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the process whereby "verb-able/ability" can mean "able/ability to do verb" is not a regular or common one in English. In fact, the only other example I can come up with at the moment is "variable/ability", though I guess there are probably others. Is it valid to say e.g. "My manoeuvrability is limited" to mean "my ability to manoeuvre is limited"? I would say so, in which case I suppose it is a distinct sense from "ability to be manoeuvred", though I'm not sure whether we should have separate numbered definitions or just the one: "ability to manoeuvre or be manoeuvred". I'm wondering whether the "strategic vs. physical" thing is a red herring wrt the distinction in question. Mihia (talk) 23:44, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- There are some instances of "X-ability" in which X is not a verb, such as roadability and knowledgeability. (There is also an obsolete verb to knowledge, but it had a different meaning than the noun and was not the contributing stem.) Indeed, "VERB-ability" generally has a passive meaning: "ability or liability to be VERB-ed". But already in Latin, sometimes the meaning was active. Examples include amicability, peccability and sociability. One coined in English is clubbability; although club can be a noun, I think this derives from the verb to club. --Lambiam 11:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- So do you think it is plausible that there is a sense of "manoeuvrability" in which the "manoeuvre" part does not stem from the verb? Mihia (talk) 11:40, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- Fair point. I don't think I was familiar with this usage, but I'm persuaded that it makes sense to have a separate sense, and the "pilot's manoeuvrability", "Lusaka's manoeuvrability" and "fancied his manoeuvrability" citations seem to attest it sufficiently. (The "women [...have] greater 'manoeuvrability'" citation probably does as well, as it seems synonymous with mobility = "the ability to move".) And there are other citations at google books:"his manoeuvrability", google books:"my manoeuvrability". Btw, another example of "X-ability" meaning "ability to X" is movability. Words relating to motion seem like a good place to look for more. - -sche (discuss) 07:50, 25 February 2020 (UTC)
- There are some instances of "X-ability" in which X is not a verb, such as roadability and knowledgeability. (There is also an obsolete verb to knowledge, but it had a different meaning than the noun and was not the contributing stem.) Indeed, "VERB-ability" generally has a passive meaning: "ability or liability to be VERB-ed". But already in Latin, sometimes the meaning was active. Examples include amicability, peccability and sociability. One coined in English is clubbability; although club can be a noun, I think this derives from the verb to club. --Lambiam 11:00, 24 February 2020 (UTC)
- It seems to me that the process whereby "verb-able/ability" can mean "able/ability to do verb" is not a regular or common one in English. In fact, the only other example I can come up with at the moment is "variable/ability", though I guess there are probably others. Is it valid to say e.g. "My manoeuvrability is limited" to mean "my ability to manoeuvre is limited"? I would say so, in which case I suppose it is a distinct sense from "ability to be manoeuvred", though I'm not sure whether we should have separate numbered definitions or just the one: "ability to manoeuvre or be manoeuvred". I'm wondering whether the "strategic vs. physical" thing is a red herring wrt the distinction in question. Mihia (talk) 23:44, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thinking more about this, I realize that references to the manoeuvrability of a ship/bus/etc can attribute it to the ship's ability to manoeuvre or to the pilot's ability and hence to the ship's ability/capacity to be manoeuvred. So although I initially thought the "comparison with those who are better off and have greater 'manoeuvrability'" seemed to be using the word in the same way as the first sense's usex, "articulated buses were invented to improve the manoeuvrability of long buses" — the people can maneuver (through society / life / socioeconomic classes), the buses can maneuver (through the streets) — and I'm not sure we want to separate that (do we in other -abilities?), I also found and added a choppy citation which seems to refer to a pilot's "manoeuvrability" meaning "ability to manoeuvre" (although portions of the page/text seem to be cut off) and realized I'm on the fence. I await others' perspectives, both on which sense each citation is using and whether they are more sensibly kept separate or combined. - -sche (discuss) 19:58, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 10:30, 3 March 2020 (UTC)