Talk:rainbow flag
Latest comment: 1 year ago by -sche in topic Application to the red-white-and-blue US flag
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SOP. Sartma (talk) 12:37, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- No, it’s not: the definition has the LGBT label. Keep. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 15:07, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- But we have rainbow#Adjective that clearly states: rainbow in attributive position = LGBT. rainbow flag is a clear SOP. Sartma (talk) 17:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. The term under consideration seems to be more widespread than that sense of rainbow. And are you sure rainbow is attested earlier than rainbow flag? ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 10:28, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- But we have rainbow#Adjective that clearly states: rainbow in attributive position = LGBT. rainbow flag is a clear SOP. Sartma (talk) 17:13, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Obvious keep. The fact it has 6 stripes alone makes it not SOP - it's not just any flag with rainbow colours on. Theknightwho (talk) 16:47, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- It's both. And both are SOP. rainbow#Adjective clearly states that rainbow in attributive position = LGBT. It's a clear SOP. Sartma (talk) 17:15, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per reasons already mentioned. AG202 (talk) 17:00, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep, it is a particular flag with particular connotations which are not discernable from the components. - TheDaveRoss 17:18, 16 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's not true. rainbow#Adjective clearly indicates that rainbow = LGBT. It's a clear SOP. Sartma (talk) 17:16, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @TheDaveRoss: it's not a particular flag. There's more than one rainbow flag. What about the peace flag? Sartma (talk) 17:38, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That is a rainbow flag, not the rainbow flag. Compare a white house with the White House. rainbow is also used to refer to LGBT generally, as you mention, but it is limited to modifying groups of people (in my experience), whereas if you said "look at that rainbow mural" I would expect a mural of the weather phenomenon not a bunch of gay icons. - TheDaveRoss 13:14, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. There have been rainbow flags in various cultures and movements, so IMO the definition is unnecessarily restrictive. The term can be used for a flag depicting a rainbow,[1] or one with seven stripes.[2] --Lambiam 08:57, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
- That doesn't make it SOP, though. It is frequently used specifically. Theknightwho (talk) 15:55, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- “The red, white, and green flag” is also frequently used specifically. --Lambiam 22:04, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Then feel free to add it. Theknightwho (talk) 22:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- I hoped I had made my opinion clear that a term’s frequently being used with a specific meaning (“President of the United States”) does not imply that it merits inclusion. I’d nominate the term red, white, and green flag for deletion if someone included it, so the hint that I could add it myself is dramatically misplaced. --Lambiam 21:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I had spotted that, but my own flippant response was to make the point that if you feel red, white, and green flag is frequently used to refer to a specific flag (and by that I mean a specific design), then that would in fact warrant inclusion because its meaning would not be possible to derive from its constituent parts. For example, red, white and green is not a synonym for Italian.
- I fail to see how President of the United States is remotely comparable, given that its meaning is derived by president + of + the United States. Theknightwho (talk) 13:10, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- When I read, “As early as the eighth of February, 1837, the President of the United States declared, in a message to Congress, that ...”,[3] I need to consult an encyclopedia to find out that the referent is Andrew Jackson. This cannot be deduced from the term itself, also not in the context in which appears, without using extraneous information. --Lambiam 22:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Okay, but from the definition of president we can easily infer that it is the incumbent of the position at the time. Theknightwho (talk) 13:24, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- At this point, I'd actually support including President of the United States since it's a set phrase. Binarystep (talk) 00:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- When I read, “As early as the eighth of February, 1837, the President of the United States declared, in a message to Congress, that ...”,[3] I need to consult an encyclopedia to find out that the referent is Andrew Jackson. This cannot be deduced from the term itself, also not in the context in which appears, without using extraneous information. --Lambiam 22:43, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- I hoped I had made my opinion clear that a term’s frequently being used with a specific meaning (“President of the United States”) does not imply that it merits inclusion. I’d nominate the term red, white, and green flag for deletion if someone included it, so the hint that I could add it myself is dramatically misplaced. --Lambiam 21:49, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Then feel free to add it. Theknightwho (talk) 22:06, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- “The red, white, and green flag” is also frequently used specifically. --Lambiam 22:04, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- That doesn't make it SOP, though. It is frequently used specifically. Theknightwho (talk) 15:55, 19 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. As others have said, it doesn't refer to rainbow flags in general, but a specific one that isn't obvious from the phrase "rainbow flag". Binarystep (talk) 06:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Saying something thrice that is not true does not make it true. It is easily verified that the term is used for flags that are unrelated to the LGBT movement.[4][5][6] --Lambiam 10:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't really see how that's relevant. I could find numerous examples of green card being used to refer to literal green cards, but that doesn't negate the two definitions on that page. There are plenty of rainbow flags that have nothing to do with LGBT pride, but the use of the term rainbow flag to refer to this specific flag is worth documenting. Binarystep (talk) 13:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is arguably covered by WT:LIGHTBULB - it assumes surrounding social knowledge that can't otherwise be derived. Theknightwho (talk) 15:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Honestly looking at that page again, I feel that it's not as enforced as it truly should be. AG202 (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- How do you mean? Theknightwho (talk) 15:44, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- As in, those examples aren't enforced in RFD like they should be. I've seen RFDs result in deletion that definitely shouldn't have happened had that been enforced. AG202 (talk) 16:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed. Theknightwho (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Any examples? I wouldn't mind starting a proposal to reverse those RFDs. Binarystep (talk) 03:58, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- See Talk:British Pakistani, which springs to mind: British Pakistani meets WT:FRIED on the basis that it refers to heritage (rather than nationality), and WT:LIGHTBULB because it's a community of Pakistani heritage in the UK (which is the other way around to Irish American, who are not a community of American heritage in Ireland). The proposal was on the basis of a slippery slope argument which we explicitly disallow under WT:CFI, and most arguments were that it was SOP, which it evidently is not. Theknightwho (talk) 13:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Noted. I also noticed that Seax was deleted because of WT:NSE, despite not actually violating it (since it's a nickname for a website rather than the proper name, making it more comparable to Pit of Voles and the various pages for public figures' nicknames). There's also the Kent State Gun Girl deletion I previously objected to, which happened because the subject was "non-notable" despite that rule only applying to Wikipedia. Binarystep (talk) 03:40, 22 June 2022 (UTC) (edited)
- @Theknightwho Putting something together you might find useful. Binarystep (talk) 04:17, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Re-created angery since it seems like the clearest one to me and the RFD didn't seem based in the actual usage of the word. AG202 (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's got to be one of the worst RFDs I've seen yet. Theknightwho (talk) 04:58, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Re-created angery since it seems like the clearest one to me and the RFD didn't seem based in the actual usage of the word. AG202 (talk) 04:35, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- See Talk:British Pakistani, which springs to mind: British Pakistani meets WT:FRIED on the basis that it refers to heritage (rather than nationality), and WT:LIGHTBULB because it's a community of Pakistani heritage in the UK (which is the other way around to Irish American, who are not a community of American heritage in Ireland). The proposal was on the basis of a slippery slope argument which we explicitly disallow under WT:CFI, and most arguments were that it was SOP, which it evidently is not. Theknightwho (talk) 13:01, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- As in, those examples aren't enforced in RFD like they should be. I've seen RFDs result in deletion that definitely shouldn't have happened had that been enforced. AG202 (talk) 16:32, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- How do you mean? Theknightwho (talk) 15:44, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Honestly looking at that page again, I feel that it's not as enforced as it truly should be. AG202 (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- This is arguably covered by WT:LIGHTBULB - it assumes surrounding social knowledge that can't otherwise be derived. Theknightwho (talk) 15:27, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't really see how that's relevant. I could find numerous examples of green card being used to refer to literal green cards, but that doesn't negate the two definitions on that page. There are plenty of rainbow flags that have nothing to do with LGBT pride, but the use of the term rainbow flag to refer to this specific flag is worth documenting. Binarystep (talk) 13:41, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- rainbow#Adjective clearly states that rainbow = LGBT. It's a clear SOP. Sartma (talk) 17:19, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- WT:JIFFY. That meaning of rainbow came from rainbow flag. Binarystep (talk) 00:08, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- Saying something thrice that is not true does not make it true. It is easily verified that the term is used for flags that are unrelated to the LGBT movement.[4][5][6] --Lambiam 10:59, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep: I feel the specific sense meaning the Pride Flag is not SoP because the meaning is narrower than just “a flag with a rainbow on it”. If there are other consistent uses of the term to mean other specific flags that aren’t just flags with a rainbow on them (I’m not aware if there are or not), those may be added as additional senses. (By the same token, we should not add the sense “a flag with a rainbow on it” because that would be SoP.) — Sgconlaw (talk) 11:28, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- There's the peace flag], too. Not all rainbow flags are LGBT flags, and rainbow#Adjective clearly specifies that rainbow as an attribute = LGBT, clearly making it an SOP Sartma (talk) 17:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Sartma rainbow has that sense only because of rainbow flag. You've forgotten about WT:JIFFY. Theknightwho (talk) 17:47, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- There's the peace flag], too. Not all rainbow flags are LGBT flags, and rainbow#Adjective clearly specifies that rainbow as an attribute = LGBT, clearly making it an SOP Sartma (talk) 17:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep for practical purposes but note that rainbow is defined as LGBT, making this LGBT flag which we of course shouldn't have (just as little as any other "<what the flag stands for> + flag"). — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 19:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha That's WT:JIFFY. The flag came first. Theknightwho (talk) 19:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: I see, thanks. In that case it's a jiffy, yes. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 19:11, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Arnie Kantrowitz’s biography Under the Rainbow: Growing Up Gay was published in 1977, before the debut of the flag at the 1978 edition of the San Francisco Pride. --Lambiam 22:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's a Wizard of Oz metaphor. The origin of the rainbow flag is unrelated. Theknightwho (talk) 04:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha, @Theknightwho, @Lambiam: the peace rainbow flag is around since 1961. The LGBT flag is not the only rainbow flag and not all rainbow flags are LGBT flags. With rainbow clearly being defined as LGBT, I can't see how this is not an SOP. Sartma (talk) 17:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Sartma: It is SOP but it is saved by WT:JIFFY because, according to @Theknightwho's analysis, there was a time where rainbow flag referred to the flag of the LGBT community but rainbow did not mean LGBT. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 17:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- It also passes WT:LIGHTBULB, given it is frequently used in ways that rely on assumed social knowledge. The (LGBT) label provides the context in which this definition applies, regardless of whether other uses might exist in other contexts. Theknightwho (talk) 17:59, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha: Fair enough. Sartma (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Sartma: It is SOP but it is saved by WT:JIFFY because, according to @Theknightwho's analysis, there was a time where rainbow flag referred to the flag of the LGBT community but rainbow did not mean LGBT. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 17:48, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha, @Theknightwho, @Lambiam: the peace rainbow flag is around since 1961. The LGBT flag is not the only rainbow flag and not all rainbow flags are LGBT flags. With rainbow clearly being defined as LGBT, I can't see how this is not an SOP. Sartma (talk) 17:44, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- That's a Wizard of Oz metaphor. The origin of the rainbow flag is unrelated. Theknightwho (talk) 04:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Arnie Kantrowitz’s biography Under the Rainbow: Growing Up Gay was published in 1977, before the debut of the flag at the 1978 edition of the San Francisco Pride. --Lambiam 22:04, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Theknightwho: I see, thanks. In that case it's a jiffy, yes. — Fytcha〈 T | L | C 〉 19:11, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Fytcha That's WT:JIFFY. The flag came first. Theknightwho (talk) 19:07, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
- Possibly comparable: Green, White and Gold. Equinox ◑ 13:14, 21 June 2022 (UTC)
- Lexico has it, but they mention two other specific rainbow flags in addition to the LGBT one. Based on the content of the Wikipedia article "rainbow flag", there are potentially even more that could be added. If kept, I think we should include a sense for each flag that has been called the "rainbow flag" and not just one, to be consistent and thorough. It doesn't make sense to treat the non-LGBT "rainbow flags" as &lit, since they are no more literal and have the same ontological status. In fact, some may be less literal, if they include other elements in addition to the rainbow colors. Compare how red, white and blue has senses for both the US and UK flags (probably a lot more could be added). It does make sense to put the LGBT one first since it's currently the most common, and thus the sense most people will be looking for. 98.170.164.88 19:30, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Wouldn‘t it be better to define the proper noun red, white and blue as “any of several tricolor flags bearing the colours red, white and blue”, analogous to the definitions of polysemic geonyms such as Guadalupe and San Rafael? --Lambiam 21:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- How would that be of any use to anyone? Theknightwho (talk) 21:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- It would avoid the (false[7] ) impression that the list of examples is exhaustive. --Lambiam 22:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- There are better ways of avoiding that than by telling the reader nothing. We have the exact same issue with place names. Theknightwho (talk) 13:21, 25 June 2022 (UTC)
- It would avoid the (false[7] ) impression that the list of examples is exhaustive. --Lambiam 22:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- How would that be of any use to anyone? Theknightwho (talk) 21:52, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Wouldn‘t it be better to define the proper noun red, white and blue as “any of several tricolor flags bearing the colours red, white and blue”, analogous to the definitions of polysemic geonyms such as Guadalupe and San Rafael? --Lambiam 21:49, 22 June 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. I would also support the creation of some other similar entries like black, green and gold for the flag of Jamaica, currently the only world flag not to have any red, white or blue in it. These are set phrases, a red, white and blue flag would never be called ‘white, blue and red’ and the black, green and gold flag wouldn’t be called ‘green, gold and black’. Overlordnat1 (talk) 09:11, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. ·~ dictátor·mundꟾ 14:35, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
- On one hand, it's true there's not just one LGBT rainbow flag design (the original version had more colours, some recent versions add colours as extra horizontal stripes or as a triangle at the hoist), and that flags which look like the LGBT rainbow flag (as well as other rainbow flags) have been used for other purposes. On the other hand, it feels like a set phrase and in many cases the meaning it is used to impart isn't guessable from the parts. (I think the existence of a sense "LGBT" at rainbow is a red herring because the rainbow in rainbow flag doesn't derive from that sense AFAICT, rather, that sense derives from the flag.) But back on the first hand, that seems to be true of some other phrases, e.g. if I say someone is wearing a rainbow pin (a pin that has the same stripes on it as the flag, carrying the same arguably extra-lexical information that they may be gay or supporting the LGBT community). Meh. Abstain, leaning weakly towards keep. - -sche (discuss) 09:16, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- (Weak keep from me by the way.) Equinox ◑ 09:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep. This strikes me as a set phrase. It's generally used to refer specifically to the flag with six horizontal bars. There were two designs that preceded it in the late '70s and there have been other other variants since. Plus this is the source of a number of LGBT-related coinages, such as rainbow ceiling, rainbow family, rainbow washing, etc. It's simpler to have a rainbow flag entry to point where necessary instead of having to repeatedly describe the flag and its relation to LGBT terminology. WordyAndNerdy (talk) 10:15, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Keep per the arguments already advanced. 🤦♀ Whoop whoop pull up Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes 04:53, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
Application to the red-white-and-blue US flag
[edit]Discussed at Wiktionary:Tea room/2022/July#rainbow_flag,_meaning_the_US_flag. - -sche (discuss) 18:39, 18 August 2022 (UTC)