Talk:valet
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Pronunciation[edit]
FWIW regarding/confirming diff, the 1906/7 Century Dictionary also has a consonant-final pronunciation for valet, listing it as \val´et\ or \val´ā\ (where valid is \val´id\ and \et\ is how they transcribe the end of ticket and unquiet), as do the modern Merriam-Webster and Dictionary.com. - -sche (discuss) 05:47, 21 June 2018 (UTC)
- A Pronouncing Dictionary of American English (1953) offers /ˈvælɪt/ and dismisses t-free pronunciations as pseudo-foreignization.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:26, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm, but the French do drop the t... - -sche (discuss) 17:34, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- But they didn't in Middle French, when we borrowed it, and they pronounce it /va.lɛ/, not /væleɪ/. (He makes a big deal about vowels being different in foreign pronunciations.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:57, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- The thing is, though, that it is more intended to approximate the French pronunciation than to flawlessly duplicate it. We (at least where I live) pronounce garage as /ɡəˈɹɑːʒ/. That is not quite identical to the French /ɡa.ʁaʒ/, but it is an approximation of it with English vowels and consonants. A similar attempt at this can be seen in one British pronunciation of the word, /ˈɡæɹɑː(d)ʒ/. At the same time, the more plain British pronunciation /ˈɡæɹɪdʒ/ exists as well. Furthermore, we have done the same thing to valet as we have to the word homage (at least in some senses). Traditionally pronounced /ˈhɑmɪdʒ/ / /ˈhɒmɪdʒ/, it is sometimes pronounced /oʊˈmɑːʒ/ now. Tharthan (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- That's his issue, not necessarily mine. I do see the point that valet is not from French, it's from Middle French, that pronounced the t. There's no reason to change the pronunciation away from the etymology-correct pronunciations that's also more consistent with the spelling. Also if you want to speak French, speak French; why should we change the pronunciation of perfectly good English words to be more like French?--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Oh, don't get me wrong. Personally I'm far, far more fond of the Germanic languages than the Romance languages. And although this doesn't apply in this case, in some cases, for instance, when there is a word which shows the blatant impact of the Great Vowel Shift, but there exists an alternative pronunciation which does not, or has been influenced by it much less, then I would rather use that pronunciation. Similarly, if we have thoroughly butchered a word in our attempt to pronounce it (or have thoroughly butchered it in both spelling and pronunciation), then I would rather use a pronunciation that is less butchered. Take, for example, karaoke, Julius Caesar, niche, Nevada and Colorado. There exist thoroughly "Englished" pronunciations for these, but there also exist approximations of the pronunciations in the languages that we have borrowed them from (or from where they ultimately come from). I am particularly put off by the "Englished" pronunciation of niche. It just sounds bad to my ears. I am also the type of person who pronounces Celt with a /k/, spells über with ü (I try to approximate the German pronunciation of that word as well) spells grey as grey (I'm not fond of spelling words with /eɪ/ with "ay" or "ai" if I don't have to. Since nine times out of ten I do have to, I'll happily take the instance where I don't have to and choose not to). There are some exceptions to this, though. I prefer "Englished" forms of many German words and, especially, names (especially when there are Ws involved). Tharthan (talk) 22:34, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- That's his issue, not necessarily mine. I do see the point that valet is not from French, it's from Middle French, that pronounced the t. There's no reason to change the pronunciation away from the etymology-correct pronunciations that's also more consistent with the spelling. Also if you want to speak French, speak French; why should we change the pronunciation of perfectly good English words to be more like French?--Prosfilaes (talk) 21:54, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- The thing is, though, that it is more intended to approximate the French pronunciation than to flawlessly duplicate it. We (at least where I live) pronounce garage as /ɡəˈɹɑːʒ/. That is not quite identical to the French /ɡa.ʁaʒ/, but it is an approximation of it with English vowels and consonants. A similar attempt at this can be seen in one British pronunciation of the word, /ˈɡæɹɑː(d)ʒ/. At the same time, the more plain British pronunciation /ˈɡæɹɪdʒ/ exists as well. Furthermore, we have done the same thing to valet as we have to the word homage (at least in some senses). Traditionally pronounced /ˈhɑmɪdʒ/ / /ˈhɒmɪdʒ/, it is sometimes pronounced /oʊˈmɑːʒ/ now. Tharthan (talk) 21:31, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- But they didn't in Middle French, when we borrowed it, and they pronounce it /va.lɛ/, not /væleɪ/. (He makes a big deal about vowels being different in foreign pronunciations.)--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:57, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Hmm, but the French do drop the t... - -sche (discuss) 17:34, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
- Funny enough, I was watching Around the World in Eighty Days (1956) and a character pronounced valet with a /t/ at the end. I don't know was current in 1956 or was used as a Victorian pronunciation, though that would be exceptional care to detail.--Prosfilaes (talk) 01:10, 25 June 2018 (UTC)