Talk:vox populi, vox bovi
Latest comment: 2 years ago by Metaknowledge in topic RFV discussion: August–September 2021
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It rhymes but it's wrong: it should be bovis. Definitely not Latin. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:12, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- Based on uses/mentions on Google Books and Usenet, it makes the most sense to class this as German.
←₰-→Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:47, 4 April 2018 (UTC)- This kind of thing makes me wonder if there'd be any utility in a "Psuedo-Latin" or "Pidgin Latin" lang code... ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:32, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- If so, I'd call it Dog Latin. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- Woof. Or perhaps, baubārī. Presumably the lang code would be
dog-lat? :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:54, 4 April 2018 (UTC)- Isn't pig latin still part of some language's parlance though? I wouldn't expect the same erroneous phrase to be understood as a set idiom by everyone who is properly educated in Latin. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 21:00, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- There's a difference between Pig Latin, which is a language game based on English and has nothing to do with Latin, and Dog Latin, which is bad Latin or fake Latin. If this phrase is used in German texts, especially in such a way that the writer clearly expects his readers to know what it means, then we should list it as ==German==, but we could describe it as Dog Latin in the Etymology section and perhaps even categorize it that way if we wanted to. I'm just not sure how to fit a Dog Latin category into our category tree. It shouldn't be a subcat of CAT:Latin language, but what then? Should we divide Dog Latin up by language and have vox populi vox bovi in CAT:German Dog Latin but hocus pocus in CAT:English Dog Latin? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:27, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm against sorting it as Latin other than an etymology only language 'Dog Latin' which might be categorised in the Latin categories with 'Terms derived from Dog Latin'. It just doesn't seem correct to me if it's not used in Latin as an independent language. ps.: And of course at the same time have it add the category 'de: Dog Latin'. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:39, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- It's pretty much the same situation as with pseudo-anglicisms, which aren't classified as English but as German, French (e.g. tennisman), Italian etc. (even though "purists" might regard them as non-German, non-French, non-Italian etc.). If not attestable in Latin, then it's not Latin. If attestable in German, it's German Dog Latin. As for German, it could be vox populi, vox bovi or vox populi – vox bovi with an additional puntuation mark. -84.161.48.142 03:41, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
- Personally, I'm against sorting it as Latin other than an etymology only language 'Dog Latin' which might be categorised in the Latin categories with 'Terms derived from Dog Latin'. It just doesn't seem correct to me if it's not used in Latin as an independent language. ps.: And of course at the same time have it add the category 'de: Dog Latin'. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 22:39, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- There's a difference between Pig Latin, which is a language game based on English and has nothing to do with Latin, and Dog Latin, which is bad Latin or fake Latin. If this phrase is used in German texts, especially in such a way that the writer clearly expects his readers to know what it means, then we should list it as ==German==, but we could describe it as Dog Latin in the Etymology section and perhaps even categorize it that way if we wanted to. I'm just not sure how to fit a Dog Latin category into our category tree. It shouldn't be a subcat of CAT:Latin language, but what then? Should we divide Dog Latin up by language and have vox populi vox bovi in CAT:German Dog Latin but hocus pocus in CAT:English Dog Latin? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 21:27, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- Isn't pig latin still part of some language's parlance though? I wouldn't expect the same erroneous phrase to be understood as a set idiom by everyone who is properly educated in Latin. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 21:00, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- Woof. Or perhaps, baubārī. Presumably the lang code would be
- If so, I'd call it Dog Latin. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- This kind of thing makes me wonder if there'd be any utility in a "Psuedo-Latin" or "Pidgin Latin" lang code... ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:32, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
- Markup changed to German by Metaknowledge. Right action. Handy (mobile phone) is German as well. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
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(Note: This ain't vox populi, vox bovi or vox populi – vox bovi.) — This unsigned comment was added by 2003:DE:3720:3794:8131:6419:3:B505 (talk) at 13:02, 11 August 2021 (UTC).
- So? It is mainly a spoken phrase, and speech and Latin both lack punctuation. I also doubt that it is Dog Latin since the bovī can be dative in this position. Apart from that, the punctuation in the two examples is wrong. “est” is implied in the middle and cannot be replaced by a comma or a dash (not like in Russian —). So only this is correct. Same thing with that RFM for vox populi vox dei. Fay Freak (talk) 11:10, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- 1. It's not Latin. 2. Comma or dash is used, e.g. [1], [2], en or fr. --13:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- 1. It’s not German. 2. It’s irrelevant what’s used if it’s wrong. If only misspellings are attested then we should take the correct spelling. Or in this case, it may be better to have none, because it is neither Latin nor German, and it’s not worth it if it’s wrong either way. Fay Freak (talk) 14:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- "It’s irrelevant what’s used": genitive bovi and e.g. English octopi are already incorrect (from a Latin PoV), yet are used which beats "correctness". --14:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- No, it doesn’t. That which is is no measure of what should be. Fay Freak (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Wiktionary documents what is (see WT:CFI) and not what should be in somebody's opinion. That's also better as there can be different contradicting opinions about what should be.
- As for a possible 3rd German usage with comma:
- Lars P. Feld & Marcel R. Savioz, Vox Populi, Vox Bovi? Ökonomische Auswirkungen direkter Demokratie, in: Konstitutionelle Politische Ökonomie - the capitalisation varies in various secondary sources ([3] gives it as "Vox Populi, vox Bovi?"; [4] as "Vox populi, vox bovi?").
- 15.04.2003, Erika Ciesla, de.org.politik.misc (@Google Groups) (mentioning): "Ich habe einfach den _bekannten_ Sinnspruch »vox populi, vox bovi« umfunktioniert."
- [mentionings] [5]
- Well, alternatively, cites with comma and dash could be counted together and the most common variant could be the lemma. (As for cites with neither comma nor dash, i don't see anything German except "vox poluli vox bovi") --23:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- No, it doesn’t. That which is is no measure of what should be. Fay Freak (talk) 15:02, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- "It’s irrelevant what’s used": genitive bovi and e.g. English octopi are already incorrect (from a Latin PoV), yet are used which beats "correctness". --14:41, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- 1. It’s not German. 2. It’s irrelevant what’s used if it’s wrong. If only misspellings are attested then we should take the correct spelling. Or in this case, it may be better to have none, because it is neither Latin nor German, and it’s not worth it if it’s wrong either way. Fay Freak (talk) 14:13, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- 1. It's not Latin. 2. Comma or dash is used, e.g. [1], [2], en or fr. --13:00, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
- Moved to the form with the comma. This quibbling over typography for a term that is clearly attested strikes me as silly. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:39, 13 September 2021 (UTC)