Wiktionary talk:About Saterland Frisian
See Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2012/March#frs_and_stq.
See Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2012/November#Template:frs.
The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for moves, mergers and splits (permalink).
This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.
I propose to create {{gmw-fre}} as an unambiguous code for the "East Frisian" variety of Frisian, and switch all remaining transclusions of "frs" to "gmw-fre". Currently, we use {{frs}} for the that variety of Frisian, but {{frs}} is ambiguous: it appears to have been intended by the ISO to designate either "Saterland Frisian" (the last surviving variety of East Frisian, which has the code {{stq}}) or "Eastern Frisian" (a variety of Low German which, like other German varieties, has been subsumed into {{nds-de}}). (In the first of two previous discussions of {{frs}}, all participants assumed that {{frs}} and {{stq}} referred to Frisian and therefore debated merging them. The second discussion investigated whether {{frs}} referred to a Frisian lect or a Low German one: ultimately, it seems it's unknowable, since Ethnologue hasn't responded to requests for clarification.) - -sche (discuss) 18:56, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- I personally don't see the point. There is an existing, valid code which may (or may not) have ben intended for this language. Even when we follow ISO standards, we do tend to, for example, redefine the spatial or temporal extent of that code in a different way than Ethnologue might. This seems to be the same thing to me. If
{{frs}}is ever officially demystified, and it's not in line with our coverage, then we can revisit the matter. For now, I advocate against moving it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:16, 28 December 2012 (UTC)- All we want to avoid is people making entries in East Frisian. We could just turn it into an etymology code and move it to
{{etyl:frs}}? —CodeCat 20:24, 28 December 2012 (UTC)- I think allowing/barring East Frisian entries is a separate question. Saterland Frisian is the last living dialect of East Frisian, but at least some terms from other East Frisian dialects are attested, and I can see how some people might prefer to have ==East Frisian== entries for those terms, or simply to have East Frisian terms like we have Middle High German terms. I don't think the question of whether to allow or ban that should be rolled into the question of what code to use.
- I oppose "
{{etyl:frs}}". Ethnologue calls "frs" a "Low German" (not "Frisian") language, claims it's spoken by only 2000 people (the Frisian lect is dead, but Saterland Frisian is spoken by 6000; the Low German lect is spoken by 230 000), and says it's not mutually intelligible with Saterland Frisian (which is true of the Low German lect, untrue of the Frisian lect). Randomly guessing which one of those lects to use the ambiguous code for is one thing... but designing a brand-new code that is intentionally ambiguous (like{{etyl:frs}})? - Given Ethnologue's ambiguity and the fact both lects go by "East Frisian" (though the Low German one also uses "Eastern Frisian", and the Frisian one might, too), I suspect that some of the
{{frs}}words I've seen in etymologies and haven't been able to find{{stq}}cognates/descendents of are indeed the product of people using "frs" to mean "Low German". (I haven't been able to confirm any yet because East Frisian and Eastern Frisian are both relatively obscure.) - -sche (discuss) 22:51, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- All we want to avoid is people making entries in East Frisian. We could just turn it into an etymology code and move it to
See Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2013/January#Saterlandic_and_East_Frisian_again.
See Wiktionary:Grease pit/2015/March#Language_code_frs_is_not_valid.